Ethanol/gas mix - could that be a problem for our engines ?

[The German]

In Europe the government decided that fuel has to be mixed with 10% ethanol within the next years; at present we have a 5% mix. Could the higher mix of 10% ethanol cause any problems to seals or hoses or filters in the tank, the carburator or elsewhere ? Is it necessary to replace some parts ?:confused:

Do you have ethanol mixed to the gas in the US also ?

If not I guess you will get it soon, so that this question might be an important one for all of us !

BTW: There is a new company which plans to produce ethanol very cheap so that the time will come that we probably will drive with a much higher percentage of ethanol : "... Coskata and ICM will speed the commercialization of a process that will convert biomass into advanced biofuels from a number of renewable materials, at a production cost of less than $1 a gallon." :xyxthumbs: (http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=51382&src=rss)

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Rolf

... just found another information regarding Coskata (!):
http://www.energy-business-review.com/article_news.asp?guid=62DB28D1-4EF8-4528-9919-B91D100EA758

[Smartin]

There are people that say ethanol isn't good for the rubber parts in our fuel systems, but I don't think it's any worse than regular gasoline.

We've been running it here since I could drive (1997) and I can't really see any ongoing problems with the old cars.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

I agree with Adam on his reply. Ditto

[The German]

Adam and Rick, thanks for your information ! Perhaps you will hear / read about some actual discussion regarding that question sometime in future; if there would be any important news for us, don´t forget to tell it here.
_________________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Also we have 5% ethanol in the gasoline and going up to a mix with 10% is probably no big deal as already have been pointed out.

Some people here have rebuilt their engines to run on pure ethanol (E85) and they typically replaced rubber sealing’s etc. The cars in this case were from 80-90’s and the cost for rebuilding them ended up at like 800-1000 dollars.
What you need to keep in mind is that the engine will consume 25% more ethanol than it would with pure gas, plus that it will be harder to start during cold weather.

Some people say that the ethanol is no long term solution for replacing the gas anyway and it increases food prices…………..

[The German]

... ... Some people say that the ethanol is no long term solution for replacing the gas anyway and it increases food prices…………. .

Thanks for your information also, Per.

Only the last what you told is based on the older production plants for ethanol; "Coskata and ICM will use a unique three-step conversion process that turns virtually any carbon-based feedstock, including biomass, municipal solid waste, bagasse, and other agricultural waste into ethanol." And: "... the company's technology that manufactures ethanol from any renewable source, including garbage, old tires and plant waste ...", even "... non-recyclable vehicle parts. " The effectiveness of their plants will be much higher than with the older "Fischer-Tropsch"-process which is up to now limited for biomass only.

So I guess if they will come to a stable process in greater plants we will get more ethanol at a low price and this surely will change the fuel market.

We will have some time until those coming days but we should keep an eye on the developement to be ready to prepare our cars if necessary.
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Rolf

[The German]

... a flash view of the production process :
http://www.coskata.com/process.asp

They write : "...the Coskata process has the potential to yield over 100 gallons of ethanol per ton of dry carbonaceous input material, reducing both operational and capital costs."

I guess they really have the potential to dominate the ethanol market someday. Hope that´s interesting for most of us.
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Rolf

[Sweepspear]

The State of Minnesota were I live has mandated 10% ethanol in our gasoline for years now.
Other than a drop in mileage, it's ok.
We are going to a 20% ethanol mix by 2012 if I remember correctly.

My Riviera hates the stuff though.
I buy what is called clear gas that has no ethanol in it.
Only a few stations carry it.

[The German]

... ... My Riviera hates the stuff though. ... ...

Thanks, Dale, for these interesting facts. Only tell us also about what happens to your Riviera when driving with the 10%-ethanol-to-gas-mix. Guess that would be interesting for all !
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Rolf

[Sweepspear]

Thanks, Dale, for these interesting facts. Only tell us also about what happens to your Riviera when driving with the 10%-ethanol-to-gas-mix. Guess that would be interesting for all !
_____________
Rolf


Well,
I know that not everyone has a problem using it in their old cars, but on 2 occasions when I used the regular pump gas with the ethanol mix the car would surge going down the road and barely idle. :tonge2:
As soon as I would fill up with either the clear gas I mentioned, or racing gas, the problem went away.
The 1st time I thought it was just a fluke that I had gotten some bad gasoline, but when it happened a second time months later with gas from another station it made me think twice about ever using regular pump gas in it again.

Perhaps adjusting the timing and fuel mixture would make a difference in how the car would run on the ethanol blend? :confused4:

I am curious as to what others think.

[The German]

If the effect gets away by using the pur gas I guess it must be only the adjustment - perhaps timing, perhaps carburator, perhaps both.
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Rolf

[Sweepspear]

This just in: :coffee:

Minnesota State University just published a study that shows a fuel mix containing 20% ethanol will work fine in both newer, and older cars.

The State of Minnesota is going to this 20% ethanol blend by 2013.

I'll reserve judgement until I experience it for myself though.

I thought some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read/?id=1204735105&paper=topstories


:user:

[The German]

This just in: :coffee:
Minnesota State University just published a study that shows a fuel mix containing 20% ethanol will work fine in both newer, and older cars. ... ...

... very interesting for me and I guess it will be a good information for all of us !

Thanks for posting this link, Dale !:xyxthumbs:
___________
Rolf

[Shibbyman8787]

WARNING: Buying ETHANOL at any percentage in your fuel drastically reduces engine longevity. GM recommends 100% 91 octane or greater for all high performance 455's and for that matter the smaller cousin. Please buy at least pure gasoline. I only feed my car 91 octane, and I dream of inventing a 99 octane.

[The German]

Now we have E10 (a 95 octane gasoline which is a mix with 10% Ethanol [ C2H6O ]) and it´s a big problem here in Germany – seems as if no one likes it ! The most of the cars here should be able to be driven with it at getting no disadvantages – so the most car producers told their customers. On the other hand they also told that some cars should not be driven with the new stuff b/c those cars have some parts with are not withstanding the Ethanol (washers, seals, hoses and things made of aluminum). So there is a listing of cars who should not drive E10; one tank of E10 could kill the engines of those cars ! –

Okay so far. But in discussions about that new stuff the specialists also told :
- E10 produces more water instead of CO² and therefore the oil has to be changed a little bit more often or the cars have to get a better oil now;
- If a car is stored for some time the Ethanol of the E10 separates more and more from the mixture and with the O² in the air it forms to Acetaldehyd (C2H4O), rust in the tank could become a problem and if this segregated part of the mixture would come pure into the engine it would cause greater problems than the mixture if this would happen often.

So this seems to be too much risk for the most drivers here in Germany and they decide not to take the E10 but fill their tanks with the old “Super 95” or “Super 98” which only has 5% Ethanol. The gas producers now have a big problem : they expected that the new stuff would become the normally used fuel and so they produced lots of tons E10, filled it into the big tanks and reduced production of the old fuel. Because the customers don´t take the E10 they have to fill the smaller tanks at the gas stations very often with the “E5-Super” at higher costs for transport while the E10 is getting older – it was produced some weeks ago and now Ethanol begins to separate from the mixture so that the day comes nearer that they can´t sell that stuff ! They also can´t change back b/c they are forced selling E10 at a high quote by our government. Now they started a huge information campagne trying to convince people to take E10 b/c this would be best for saving the worlds oil reserves and not produce so much CO² which would be bad for the worlds climate ... .

The prices for the different fuel today are here : E10 = 1,50 Euro, Super 95 = 1,50 Euro and Super 98 = 1,56 Euro. So it´s of course clear for me : I also take the old Super 95as long as it will be possible and watch the discussions about the E10 problems.
Guess next step could be that "Super 95" is not produced any more so that people feel the preassure of the higher price of "Super 98" ... .

BTW : As far as I know from the media here also Sweden has similar problems but I don´t know exactly what´s going on there; perhaps someday Per will tell us about.

[Robroy]

BTW : As far as I know from the media here also Sweden has similar problems but I don´t know exactly what´s going on there; perhaps someday Per will tell us about.

Rolf, I red an article about the E10 a few days ago and yes, it’s coming here too but not yet.
The oil companies say they want to wait and prepare the customers in good time before they launch it, sounds like they have learned from the mistakes in Germany.

The article also said that once the E10 is launched the 98 octane most likely will be 5% ethanol, same as the 95 octane is today.

I always fill up the C with 98 or the 99 Shell V-Power which is pure fuel….for now.
Many gas stations only have 95 though, so it takes some planning to stick to the high octane alternatives

[EEE]

California has a 10% summer blend I think it's called.

I don't think the European 95, 98, 99 octane compares to U.S. 87,89,91 etc. They're calculated differently.

[The German]

Per, my information was that you have got that new gasoline in Sweden too; I heard it in a discussion in the radio here - guess they had not the correct info or they only named the wrong state, perhaps it was Danmark or Norway. Anyway, it will be interesting watching what will happen in Sweden with E10.

The discussion about E10 is still not finished here in Germany and most people don´t take it ... ! I don´t like it too as you know. Up to now my information is :
- E10 brings more water to the engines oil especially if the car is driven on short distances often b/c then the water vapor condensation mostly happens in the engine and more water get mixed with the engine oil ... .
- E10 seperates with time as I wrote in my last post here.
- E10 has a little bit less power compared with the old stuff E5. That´s why the cars get lower mpg with E10.
- E10 burnig characteristic is a bit different compared with E5 which probably is not really bad for the engines but guess it´s not really the best too b/c the engines are built for E5 (the older ones for the pure stuff) and not for E10.
- E10 is more aggessive to paint.
- The positive effect on crude oil based energy saving and carbondioxide reduction in cars emissions seems to be very low. What I don´t understand up to now is why they don´t discuss the more of water vapor which comes into the air instead of carbondioxide with burning E10 b/c H²O has much more influence on global warming than CO².

All in all I can´t see any really positive points at E10 - up to now !

The information we have here from the US is that there are no greater discussions about such gas mix. The experience with the new gas seems to be not negative in the US and so it´s accepted. Is that also yours impression, Kimson ?

[Robroy]

Per, my information was that you have got that new gasoline in Sweden too; I heard it in a discussion in the radio here - guess they had not the correct info or they only named the wrong state, perhaps it was Danmark or Norway. Anyway, it will be interesting watching what will happen in Sweden with E10.
I think it is Finland since they has introduced the E10

[gashog]

I've gotten some bad Gas in my bike,and really notice the difference.
I knew the low price was strange,but didn't realize the ethenol content until later.
Horrible drop in mileage and performance..now they want to go 15% mixture..doesn't look good for muscle cars in the future.