Rattling noise

[Robroy]

I’ve got a rattling noise in my 455 just before going back to the idling; this is when the car is standing still and rushing the engine and its only like 5-6 sec long.:confused2:
I’m unable to hear anything when I drive, have been listening with the window down many times.
I was thinking slack timing chain maybe, what is the experience in general on noisy timing chains on these engines? Do they get that slack that you actually can hear it, or do they brake before? I was planning to replace this anyway this winter, any special brand that’s recommended?

I was also thinking bad crankshaft bearing or similar, but in that case it should sound more when the engine get to pull while driving, or?

One or several lose rocker arms might also be the case which in that case is easy to fix.

I think I will start with taking off the belts and run the engine just to exclude generator, compressor and pumps. Step two will be to take off the valve covers checking the rocker arms.

Any suggestions or ideas are most welcome :user: . I hope my Swe-English makes sense to you.:o

Thanks

[73 Centurion]

I don't have much help to offer, but there is one thing you can try. One indicator of a slack timing chain is the timing will bounce a couple of degrees at idle. If you put a timing light on the engine you should see the timing mark sitting stable. If you rev the engine you should see it advance smoothly and settle back steadily. If it shows any jerkiness you're probably right about the chain.

The timing chain housing on these engines is aluminum and if it is scored where the oil pump mounts you'll lose oil pressure. TA Performance offers new housings with enlarged oil passages. If you can afford one it makes sense to replace it when you replace the chain.

Good luck,
John

[The German]

Per, the first I would do is to take an long iron pin, press it to that part of the engine where you think the noise is coming from and press your ear on the other end of that iron pin ; then you will hear very clearly whether your assumption is right and by changing the place where you press the iron against the engine you will find out the exact place from where the the rattling noise comes. You need not to take off belts or anything other parts before this test ! I´m sure you will wonder yourself how clearly you can locate the noise source ! To do this tests it´s better to have an assistent - ask your wife for help ==> sitting in the car and serve the accelerator pedal.

Good luck !
___________________
Rolf

[Robroy]

I don't have much help to offer, but there is one thing you can try.
Hey John, any input is much appreciated and it was a smart tip to check the stability on the timing position. That old stroboscope of mine could come to use again. Still got pointers in the distributor, so the timing could do with a check anyway.
In general, how much advance can you set on a 455cid before the engine starts to diesel?
Plan to get the distributor rebuilt later or buy one that’s rebuilt, it’s a bit depending on the shipping costs.
I will also check the timing chain housing for scores when I do the timing chain replacement. Guess they could come from a slack chain?

Thanks

[Robroy]

Per, the first I would do is to take an long iron pin, press it to that part of the engine where you think the noise is coming from and press your ear on the other end of that iron pin ; then you will hear very clearly whether your assumption is right and by changing the place where you press the iron against the engine you will find out the exact place from where the the rattling noise comes. You need not to take off belts or anything other parts before this test ! I´m sure you will wonder yourself how clearly you can locate the noise source ! To do this tests it´s better to have an assistent - ask your wife for help ==> sitting in the car and serve the accelerator pedal.

Good luck !
___________________
Rolf

Know what you mean Rolf, same principle as like a doctor’s stethoscope. I thought of doing such an examination the other day, just need to find a suitable item to use.

Thanks

[73 Centurion]

A hard handled, long screw driver works nicely. Grab the handle with your pinky and ring fingers leaving a space above the top of the handle. Make a circle with your thumb an ring finger and press that against your ear. Doing it this way prevents the hard handle from banging you in the ear if the engine shudders. :spank:

It sometimes helps to block the other ear to mask the other engine noise.

Just be careful around the moving parts. It's easy to concentrate on tracking a sound and move your stethescope into a bad spot. :Dou:

You can guess how I know. :error:

[Robroy]

Yesterday I put my better half behind the wheel operating the throttle while I tried to listen where the noise come from. To my surprise I couldn’t hear much in the engine compartment, but when I bend down and listen under the car it was there.
I figure I can exclude the timing chain for the moment, besides the idling is really stable even when I set it down real low.
Coming from the lower part of the engine makes you think on a crankshaft bearing or maybe the oil pump. The fuel pump can also get noisy according to the folks at the V8 board.
Shouldn’t a bad crankshaft bearing have an impact on the oil pressure?
I think my next step will be to check the oil pressure and then get the car up on a lift at a workshop trying to locate the noise with a screwdriver.

I have recorded the engine and put on Youtube. My better half was a bit lame :sleep: on the throttle, but the rattle can be heard just when the camera goes under the car at 12-15 sec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEPgU8pnkBA

[Robroy]

I had a colleague who used to be a car mechanic at Ford for many years listening to my recording. To him it didn’t sound like a crankshaft or base bearing. A damaged crankshaft bearing should typically be noisy also when the engine is idling according to him.
It could turn out to be something embarrassing simple if I’m lucky, we’ll see.
As I said in the previous post, next step will be to check the oil pressure and to get the car up on a lift at a workshop with the engine running trying to locate the noise with a screwdriver.
I’ll be back…:user:

[Robroy]

I finally had the time to look in to this today. With the car up on a lift and with me behind the wheel rushing the engine, a car mechanic did the stethoscope thing with a screwdriver trying to locate the rattling noise.
As unpredictable these old ladies are the noise was not present today however I tried to bring it out :rooleyes2: :rolleyes: .
It stroke my mind when I got back home that we should have set the idling down low, it typically is there at low rpm’s :Dou: .
Oh well, I think I will let it rest for a while. I will do an oil change soon anyway, if I’m lucky it will disappear then.
Thinking about trying the Castrol High mileage oil, any thoughts?
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915476&contentId=7034438

[The German]

Per, I decided to take the Millers Classic 20W/50 Oil (they have it in a sport quality also : Classic Sport 20w50 ). I can buy it directly here in Germany; the dealer is located not far away from my town.
http://www.oldtimeroel.de/page%202.htm

But you could get it from GB also :
http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_frame_CLASSIC.htm

Perhaps they have it in Sweden too ?!

The oil is special designed for classic cars and "incorporates modern additive technology with period viscometrics to provide the optimum lubrication characteristics for engines manufactured in the immediate post war period through to the early 80's". I´m sure that´s the oil for our beasts ! And perhaps I´ll add some of the special additive I told you about earlier, but I´m not really sure any more if that would be worth it (I´m in discusion about that with some friends also). Read the information given in a pdf-file also:
http://www.millersoils.net/1_downloads/literature/classic/M-tt_CLASSIC_ENGINE_OIL.pdf

Please inform us about your choise and perhaps about the reason for this choise. I´m very interested in getting the best oil mixture, because the motor is the heart of our cars and they sometimes rest a longer period until we start them again. For a longer rest it´s important to have an oil with the correct additives in it which save the engine and hold a film of oil on all parts so that the engine starts on this film and not turning iron on iron !
____________________
Rolf

[The German]

I googled and found this site, Per :

http://www.algonet.se/~millers/info.html

But I didn´t see the Classic 20W/50 there :confused: .
You could contact them and ask for.
_______________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Please inform us about your choise and perhaps about the reason for this choise.
Rolf,
The oil from Millers that is specially designed for old engines seems like a good pick to me. It makes sense what they say about modern oils being designed for modern cars and also being considerate to the environment. Do you know what it costs?

Regarding the Castrol High Mileage I have not done much of an investigation, just happened to see the bottles on the shelf and bought a litre for refilling purpose thinking my car certainly is a high mileage car :rolleyes: . My experience is that Castrol has good products in general.

[Robroy]

check your exhaust before ripping anything on your engine apart, you may havea loose baffle in a muffler or the little weighted choke butterfly thingamajig often rattles on older cars
I have been thinking a lot about the exhaust as the cause. Just before the car was sold to me they had replaced the middle muffler, so that’s almost new. A long shot could be that they had dropped a nut or something creating that rattling noise inside the muffler :confused4: .
Earlier I took the car to a guy that rebuilds old V8’s for the track. He’s general comment was that this could be anything, however he mentioned something about a draught valve inside the manifold that could be cause.
In any case it’s a good point to start with making sure it’s not the exhaust before taking the engine apart.

[The German]

Rolf,
... Do you know what it costs? ...

In Germany it costs € 29,9 per 5 liters in the shop, online you have to pay for mailing of course. But you can follow my first link and then klick on "SHOP - Millers Oils" - next on " Motorenöl" - then scroll down to "SAE 20W/50 Classic" and klick it - then scroll down again and take your choise at "Gebindegröße" - then you will see the price right hand - and on "Versandkosten" they show the costs for sending the oil by mail.
___________________
Rolf

Added :
With "Google Translate" you could get German to English :
http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=de|en
It´s not very good but the most information comes out correct ! And - wow, I myself saw it the first time - you can translate the whole site just by copy the link into the line and then all following pages are converted to English - wonderful for all of us !!! I will use this funktion the other way round when looking to US sites now !:xyxthumbs: :) :beers:

[Robroy]

€ 29,9 per 5 liters (42 USD per 1,32 gallon) is fair enough for me.
I think I can contact the Swedish agency to order it here

On a side note Öl means beer :beers: in Swedish :laugh:

Regarding the online translation tool, I agree its pretty cool isn’t it…
The translation companies use this function a lot to do a rough translation when they translate, then they let human beings fix the grammar and to catch the words where the computer has been stupid/blind

In my case I understand German pretty well since its similar to Swedish and also because I have learned it at school, I just have very little experience using this knowledge.

[SBRMD]

in my '75 Electra (455 4V), and it turned out to be the heat riser valve in the driver's side manifold.

Good luck!

-Steve in Mpls, MN

[Robroy]

This sounds like a good lead! I will definitely look in to that.

Below is a pict (not from a Buick) so we know we’re talking about the same thing. The heat inside my car comes very quickly after driving only very little, could it be due to this valve being in its closed position?

I asked my American colleges for help translating “thingamagig” since I got no hit in the dictionary :D

Steve,
I assume Mpls, MN is Minneapolis in Minnesota? If so I’ve been there, it was actually the first place I visited in the US.

[SBRMD]

That's right!

Similar climate to yours?

Definitely a place where heat risers are necessary!

Best regards,
Steve.

[Robroy]

I’m located in south Sweden, near Copenhagen the Danish capital.
We actually have green winters here occasionally, but normally winter means a few weeks with snow and temperatures between 20 to 40 *F. Sometimes it can get down to 10-0* F, but not often.
From what I’ve heard Minneapolis can get really cold, below zero Fahrenheit I suppose?

Thanks

[Robroy]

in my '75 Electra (455 4V), and it turned out to be the heat riser valve in the driver's side manifold.
The noise that made me start this thread once seems to be gone…for now :rolleyes: , but I still want to have a look at that Heat riser
I was under my baby yesterday and looked up where the exhaust connects on the drivers side, but I couldn’t locate it, I had expected to see a piece like the one in post #19 sitting between the manifold and exhaust?

[Smartin]

You probably don't have one...but if you do, it's n the passenger side.`

[RFortuna]

Hi Per,

Not sure if it's the same noise, but my red 72 (sold to Keith) developed an intermitant rattling noise that turned out to be a cracked flywheel, or torque converter. Keith will probably remember since he had it repaired. It rattled at idle in gear only. On the road, or in park I couldn't hear it. Just a thought.

Randy

[Robroy]

Thanks Adam and Randy!

I have a feeling there isn’t any at the passenger side either, but I’ll have closer look next time I’m under the car.

Maybe it’s depending on the climate where the cars were sold new if these came on or not?

Interesting about that cracked flywheel, have you listened to my recording in post #7 to compare Randy?

[EEE]

You probably don't have one...but if you do, it's n the passenger side.`

I've seen these on the driver's side.

[Smartin]

hmm...maybe I'm wrong...

But I've never seen one on these cars before.

[Robroy]

Thanks Adam and Randy!

I have a feeling there isn’t any at the passenger side either, but I’ll have closer look next time I’m under the car.

Maybe it’s depending on the climate where the cars were sold new if these came on or not?


I checked the passenger side today being under the car anyway and there was no Heat riser there either…

[Robroy]

Not sure if it's the same noise, but my red 72 (sold to Keith) developed an intermitant rattling noise that turned out to be a cracked flywheel, or torque converter. Keith will probably remember since he had it repaired. It rattled at idle in gear only. On the road, or in park I couldn't hear it. Just a thought.

Working under the car anyway today, I took off the cover under the fly wheel/converter to do a visible inspection as well as check that every bolt was properly tightened.
Everything looked ok and the bolts all sat tight, so I guess I can strike this one out as a cause to the rattling noise.

I’m out of theories for the moment..hm…:rolleyes:

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Sorry for the late comment, I missed this post.

I was going to suggest the same regarding a cracked flywheel if the noise is coming from under the car. You have to inspected it very closely and it is a common breakage. It only takes a hairline crack to make that noise.
If not.

Providing you are certain the noise is from the bottom of the engine.

If I get this correctly you increase the throttle a bit and then quickly release it letting the engine back down to idle and that is when you hear the noise.

My questions to you are:

When the noise starts up is the car running fully warmed up or is it cold? My guess if you try it cold you won't hear the noise.

The oil, is it a low weight oil like a 10-30 weight?

You inspected the flexplate (flywheel) and found no hairline cracks.

I assume your motor mounts are in good shape.

Does the noise sound like you lightly bang one finger knuckle on a wooden desk (I tried listening to the audio, just couldn't pin point it). And it rattles quickly at first and then slows to where you can't hear it.

If the answers are pretty much yes I would venture to say you have a slight rod knock. All may not be lost, you may be able to drive it this way for a very long time providing you don't go beating on her with burn outs and racing. But I would start maybe setting aside some extra money for a rebuild down the road. Think of it as someone who has a bad heart. You tell them to take it easy do some walking, but no heavy exercise or over eating otherwise the heart may stop. Same priniciple here. Your Centurion may have a bad heart.

On closing I hope it isn't a rod knock. I rather read that it was something stupid that was causing it.

One helpfull tip may be to run a heavier grade oil that has zinc in it. The zinc helps protect the bearing surfaces. But remember to let her warm up a bit before any hard driving.

Another tip. Get a hold of a coffee filter and a new oil drain pan. Drain the oil in the clean pan and then pour the oil thru the strainer into another bucket afterwards inspect the strainer if any pieces of copper metal or silver metals show up. It is a messy and slow process but it may shed some light. Also if you can open up the oil filter carefully without getting any metal shavings back into the filter when prying it open. Inspect the filter inside the metal case.

[The German]

...... a slight rod knock. ... ...

Only that I could follow your lesson, Rick: I couldn´t find out what is "a rod knock" ! Could you - please - explain it to me ?

Thanks in advance, Rick !

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Sorry there,

Where the piston rod attached to the crankshaft on the larger end of the piston rod is a two piece flat soft metal bearing that goes between the piston rod and the crankshaft. The oil flows around it lubricating where the piston rod and crankshaft attach, which lets the rod spin around the crankshaft freely.

When the bearing wears out either from age, abuse, or just dirt scratching it up it creates a larger gap between the two other metal parts (crankshaft and piston rod) When the engine is accelerating or decelerating to and from a high rpm range there is a lot of up and down motion of the piston rod which if the bearing is in good shape holds things in place from movement. But if it is worn out the gap becomes larger thus the psiton rod isn't in place so it will slow down and speed up at a different rate than the rest of the engine when decelerating or accelerating, thus slapping back against the crankshaft. That slapping noise is a rod knock.

Under extreme load (racing) or abuse when this happens the rod bearing seizes up from the extra pressures and heat and gets torn up, thus oil pressure drops at that point heat builds up on the rod and crank then wanting to fuse together then next is a rod breaks and the engine is toast. All in about a nano second.

Case in point with Adam's engine. He is lucky he caught it in time so the engine is very repairable. If a rod lets go:Dou:? Forget it the block is junk.

Now before thinking about the worse case I would keep checking the engine for a possible other cause for this noise. Only because repairing a bad piston rod bearings is extreme, having to pull the engines and take it apart and rebuilding it. If the knock is not extremely noticeable and very soft in sound, I would just baby your car for now and start making plans to get it repaired at a later date when you have the money and time to do it. With these cars even when on the highway you will only be pushing about 3,000 rpm's max on the high side. Just don't do any hard starts or stomping on the gas when cruising around. It should last. And also keep a close ear on it. If is starts getting louder then its time to do the repair and don't drive her.

One last point here with these engines. They are not designed to be abused, they were designed to make high amounts of torque at a low rpm range so to move these large battle tanks. The weak link in these engines is oiling and should always be a major concern when rebuilding a 455. There are some easy fixes that help with the oiling on your average street driven rebuilt engines. When you push it to the high rpm range strength in the block design becomes an issue. But for most of us Centurion guys a stronger block is not always the problem as only a hand full of us do some constant racing with these cars.

[Robroy]

Rick, I really appreciate your interest in my "case" and I’ve done my best to answer your questions below.


If I get this correctly you increase the throttle a bit and then quickly release it letting the engine back down to idle and that is when you hear the noise.

Yep, it has been exactly like that for a long time BUT lately I can hear it all the time (keeping the throttle steady) at a specific rpm which is a little over idle, maybe 900 rpm.
My questions to you are:


When the noise starts up is the car running fully warmed up or is it cold? My guess if you try it cold you won't hear the noise..
Correct, its only when warmed up, however the choke keeps the idle a little too high to hear it when real cold


The oil, is it a low weight oil like a 10-30 weight? ..
I have 10-40W half synthetic oil in the crank case


You inspected the flexplate (flywheel) and found no hairline cracks.
I studied it as thorough as I could laying under the car with the cover off and spinning the converter one quarter of a turn at the time. I focused especially on the area where the bolts connect to the converter and I also checked that bolts were tightened.


I assume your motor mounts are in good shape..
I haven’t checked them real close but they look ok and the engine seems to “move” normally in the engine bay when rushing it.


Does the noise sound like you lightly bang one finger knuckle on a wooden desk (I tried listening to the audio, just couldn't pin point it). And it rattles quickly at first and then slows to where you can't hear it.
It sounds more like a metallic noise than a lightly bang of one finger knuckle on a wooden desk. I wish I could describe it better :confused4:, I’m thinking on doing a new audio recording in which it appears more clearly.

Oil pressure is good (30-60 Psi) http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=154403

Another thing is that I haven’t been able to hear this while driving although I have been trying with the window down driving slow on narrow streets etc.

Think I’m gone run the engine warm and then release all belts, start her up briefly just to exclude compressor, generator and water pump.
If its still there, I’ll try again listening with a screwdriver (stethoscope) against the crank case etc.
I need to get going cracking this now :spank::spank:

Thanks again Rick :beers:

[The German]

Thanks, Rick, for spending your time to explain all this in detail ! :xyxthumbs: Good to know ...!
Hope you will find the right advices which will help Per !

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Oil pressure is good (30-60 Psi) http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=154403

Another thing is that I haven’t been able to hear this while driving although I have been trying with the window down driving slow on narrow streets etc.

Think I’m gone run the engine warm and then release all belts, start her up briefly just to exclude compressor, generator and water pump.
If its still there, I’ll try again listening with a screwdriver (stethoscope) against the crank case etc.
I need to get going cracking this now :spank::spank:

Thanks again Rick :beers:


The oil pressure will not give you any indication until it gets real bad, but by then you may be stuck someplace. But it is good to keep a close eye on it.

As far as the oil I would go to a high weight oil and like I mentioned make sure it has zinc in it. Thanks to Al Gore & company zinc has been slowly removed from the oil. With the clearance on the bad bearing being to big becasue of the wear on it, the thicker weight oil may help a bit. THe zinc does coat the bearing surface giving it added protection.

One last thought. Sometimes the alternator can make some unusual noises.

Another question here; You say the noise is coming from under the engine, try to pin point it if its in the rear or front of the engine. If in the rear under the engine that would rule out the timing chain and assessories. One last thought. I would think the answer is no. If your oil pan recently dented? If by chance it is, sometimes with a dented pan the rod bangs into it, which sounds like a rod knock.

Otherwise it does seem to point in the direction of a rod knock. :(

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Thanks, Rick, for spending your time to explain all this in detail ! :xyxthumbs: Good to know ...!
Hope you will find the right advices which will help Per !

Anytime Rolf it is never a problem to help out.

[MichelHaak]

By the way, I can not find a zinc additive here in the Netherlands... In some modern cars they use it for the diesel injection parts where there's much pressure at some places in the system... Otherwise they don't know where to use zinc for. :confused4:

[Robroy]

The plan for yesterday evening was to take the car out for a spin to get it warmed up and then drop the belts to see if I might get lucky the noise being related to the accessories.
However, when I got back a friend and neighbour came over to my driveway to tell me his sons 71 Porsche made it through the registration inspection. They got this car from a dealership in Las Vegas (via ebay) last year and I helped them manufacture a km/h scale for the speedometer to put over the m/h-scale.
Since I need an assistant to make a second audio recording and the mrs isn’t always that keen such missions :sleep:, I asked if he could help which he did.
I can’t say I managed to capture the noise better this time, but it’s a longer recording and as last time it’s when the camera goes under the car it appears most clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Robroytubee

If it should show to be a bad rod bearing, isn’t there a chance of replacing all of them and maybe even also the crankshaft bearings by dropping the crank case? I was gone replace the crank case gasket anyway sometime. I realize that the crank shaft may have taken some damage too on that spot where the bad bearing is, but I’m still very curios if anyone has any experience of doing such an operation from under?

[Sweepspear]

The plan for yesterday evening was to take the car out for a spin to get it warmed up and then drop the belts to see if I might get lucky the noise being related to the accessories.
However, when I got back a friend and neighbour came over to my driveway to tell me his sons 71 Porsche made it through the registration inspection. They got this car from a dealership in Las Vegas (via ebay) last year and I helped them manufacture a km/h scale for the speedometer to put over the m/h-scale.
Since I need an assistant to make a second audio recording and the mrs isn’t always that keen such missions :sleep:, I asked if he could help which he did.
I can’t say I managed to capture the noise better this time, but it’s a longer recording and as last time it’s when the camera goes under the car it appears most clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Robroytubee

If it should show to be a bad rod bearing, isn’t there a chance of replacing all of them and maybe even also the crankshaft bearings by dropping the crank case? I was gone replace the crank case gasket anyway sometime. I realize that the crank shaft may have taken some damage too on that spot where the bad bearing is, but I’m still very curios if anyone has any experience of doing such an operation from under?


Per,
I watched (and listened) to that video before reading the last paragraph of your post, and my thoughts were a slight bearing knock also.

Nice running engine though!

[centurion 455 ragtop]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Robroytubee

If it should show to be a bad rod bearing, isn’t there a chance of replacing all of them and maybe even also the crankshaft bearings by dropping the crank case? I was gone replace the crank case gasket anyway sometime. I realize that the crank shaft may have taken some damage too on that spot where the bad bearing is, but I’m still very curios if anyone has any experience of doing such an operation from under?

Heard it too, and have to agree....motor sound great,,:tonge2:except for that slight knock.

Now you ask about changing the bearings with the engine in the car. I am sure you can do it. First you will need a garage with a lift. Doing something like this on your back with the car raised is not recommended, too much of a pain in the ass.

Now if you have a garage with a lift. Some people have only changed the bad bearings but as you stated the crank may be slightly damaged, scratched or burned, or slightly out of round. So you will be removing the crank and replacing all the bearings both rod and mains. If you just replace the bad bearing it will only put off the problem a few months before the new bearing may wears out if the crank is out of round.

Doing all of them and removing the crank I guess this can be done and should work if you have the crank sent out to be checked and repaired. You may find that the piston rod with the bad bearing may be damaged. Now you have to remove the piston rod to get re-sized. Removing the rod can be done from under the car. BUT reinstalling it will have to be done from the top because of the pistons rings, so you will end up removing a cylinder head to re-install it. I sould note that on a stock 455 engone the piston rod wrist pin (holds the rods to the pistons) are pressed on, so they would have to be removed from the engine to seperate.

So lumping this together. You can take a shot at doing it from under the car. If the rod is bad (it gets out of round and burned from the bad bearing) You will end up tearing most of the engine apart and assembling it while in the car which is a royal pain and you run the risk of scratching up your car. If the piston rod is good well then you may luck out. But think about it...:coffee: If it isn't you will be doing double work.

By pulling the engine, first off it's away from the car. Second if you have to remove a piston rod to repair, you can then remove them all and re-ring the engine and just rebuild it fresh. The difference in parts is not much. A set of rod and main bearings and rings should run about $300. A new steel timing chain is about $75. Then when its all said and done you will have a brand new engine. Instead of a repaired one that still has 7 "old" rod bearings and piston rings, timing chain (original is plastic) and main bearings etc.

My opinion is baby the car and save up some money until the winter months, if you do limited driving on it during the winter it would be a good time to do it. Then have it pulled and rebuilt. Not sure if I asked or you mentioned it. Would you be doing the work or would it have to be repaired by an outside source?

Just my take on it. Keep us posted, and good luck with it.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

One last thought on this knocking noise. Check for any exhaust leaks at the exhaust manifold to the heads and from the exhaust manifold to the exhaust pipe. Sometimes when they leak it may sound like a slight knocking noise.

Just an afterthought.

[Smartin]

It sounds like it's more than one bearing. Almost like they're all just worn to the point where there is excessive play. That is a very familiar sound, though.

[Robroy]

I really appreciate your support guys, especially all the good advice I’ve got from Rick but also from you others that have listened to my recording and sent me encouraging PM’s etc.

That being said I move over to Rick’s questions;
I don’t have access to any car lift more than the one at the local car workshop. He helped me putting on my dual exhaust one month ago; I paid him by the hour and helped him doing the job.
If I could just drop the oil pan without lifting the engine (which also means loosen a lot of stuff) I might consider taken the car there since it then probably would go rather quick replacing the rod bearings, but since not, I just think it’s a bad idea.
So the second option would be to work in my own garage. I have a solid jack and stands to get the car up and the kind of wagon to lie on and roll in under the car. Got very good light in there too, but as you say it’s a pain to work that way but still doable I think.

I get your point about that I might as well do the whole engine while I’m at it. As you say, the parts aren’t that expensive and I would then know what I had under the hood. To be honest, I love the idea but….even with cheap parts it would add up to a sum not so little. I would for ex need an engine stand to be able work on the engine, special tools like ring compressor, a lift for pulling the engine etc. Then I probably would like to do the heads too, so …..:tonge2:

Would I do the job myself, yes most of it anyway. I took a few engines apart and put them together again at car mechanic school, but… that was 30 years ago so I am a little rusty but in theory I like to think I still got it :laugh:.

As I mentioned earlier, the complete exhaust got replaced recently. The noise has increased since then, but that’s probably just a coincidence.

Think I have mentioned that my car once was converted to propane, don’t know if that would mean any increased load on bearings etc though?

My oil looks very clean and the car don’t seem to consume much of it, never any blue smoke at start up and the idling is steady. All in all the engine seems very solid except for…

[Robroy]

It sounds like it's more than one bearing. Almost like they're all just worn to the point where there is excessive play. That is a very familiar sound, though.
I’m just thinking loud here; wouldn’t a lot of worn rod bearings give a lower oil pressure?
My pressure is from 2.2 to 4.5 Bars (32 to 65 Psi)

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Per

If you are going to do the job at home without removing the engine. I would recommend having four heavy duty jack stands. You want to get the car as high as possible and stable. I have changed transmissions on my back out of my GS many times and also my Centurion. The higher up the car the easier the job. I have gotten the car up about 2 feet. I would say try to get it up that high or better. It takes a while, doing one side about a foot then the other side and back then to the other side to lifttit higher and so on. Do it in stages otherwise you may risk pushing the weight of the car too much sideways on the jackstand risking it to tilt on its footings.

Once its up that high, lay everything out under the car just like a surgen prepares for an operation.

First step is disconnect the battery and remove all the spark plugs before lifting the car up.

Also on a safety issue here: DO NOT WORK UNDER THE CAR on your back IF YOU ATE WITHIN AN HOUR!!! All it takes is an urge to throw up from a full stomach while straining on your back, I have heard nightmare stories of backyard mechanics doing this only to crack their head on the undercarraige getting knocked out and drowning in their puke.

Creepers...I don't use them its your choice. First off they take away about 5 inches of workable height and almost always the wrench you need is under the creeper or the light cord gets jammed in the wheels:Dou:

Next drain the oil. You may or may not get away with not disconnecting the exhaust system. If it is not in the way leave it on.

The Buick Service Book does have a step by step removal of the oil pan. It also states the engine has to be lifted slightly. Before moving on I would see if someone out on this board can answer that question. If the pan can be removed without slightly lifting the engine.

Adam? Or maybe someone else can answer that. I know with the Skylark body you need to do so. With the Centurion / big cars I am not sure. It would save a ton of work if you can remove the pan without lifting the engine. You need to know this from someone that has done it. No assumptions here, you need to know for sure.

The Buick Service book does not mention the starter being removed. I would disconnect and remove the starter. It will only get in the way on cleaning the block of gasket material plus it gives you more room to work. NOTE: Do you have a starter heat shield? You can leave it in place, if you don't have one, now is the time to ask someone on this board for one (I may have a spare one lying around.) It does extend the life of a starter.

SANITY CLAUSE: Say a short prayer, put on some music you like, turn off the cell phones, ditch the wife and kids and take two asprin and dive in:xyxthumbs:

I can scan pages from the Buick Service Book book for you once the question on lifting the engine or not is answered.

[Sweepspear]

I get your point about that I might as well do the whole engine while I’m at it.


That's how it begins.
Then, you wake up one morning to find the entire front clip off the car, the firewall stripped of everything, and the frame wire wheeled down to bare metal for paint.
Suspension parts are easier to work on without the engine in the car so....:laugh:

I'm just kidding with you. :xyxthumbs:




Creepers...I don't use them its your choice. First off they take away about 5 inches of workable height and almost always the wrench you need is under the creeper or the light cord gets jammed in the wheels:Dou:

I hate creepers for those same reasons! :tonge2:
I have 2 of them up in the rafters of the garage loved ones have bought for me as gifts over the years thinking it would be the perfect gift for a car guy.
They are my bad tie gift. :D

Cardboard, or a carpet remnant works best for me.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

I hate creepers for those same reasons! :tonge2:
I have 2 of them up in the rafters of the garage loved ones have bought for me as gifts over the years thinking it would be the perfect gift for a car guy.
They are my bad tie gift. :D

Cardboard, or a carpet remnant works best for me.

So true! I got two, one was a Christmas present about 5 years ago. I used it once.......did I say once:laugh:

The worst is while on the creeper under the car your re-installing something and the nut or bolt slips from your hand and rolls under the creeper right about where your shoulders are:laugh: Then you roll the creeper back, and it gets caught on the drop light cord and pulls it, which then falls from that stupid metal hook that was attached to the frame. You grab the drop light and the bolt, re-hook the drop light and the bulb then gets super bright...yep... and then it goes "dink" and burns out!:spank: Damn creepers...can't stand them, they are only good for creeper racers at track events.:D

[Smartin]

I've dropped three 455 oil pans, and now I know exactly how much work, and how long it takes. I did the last one about a week ago at the track.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

I've dropped three 455 oil pans, and now I know exactly how much work, and how long it takes. I did the last one about a week ago at the track.


Your the man Adam. :xyxthumbs:
Besides John Edwards having a love child...:laugh: Can it be done without lifting the engine off the mounts? "Enquire" ing minds would like to know:laugh:

[Smartin]

Nope...engine has to come up about 5 inches. Remember to remove the fan!

[centurion 455 ragtop]

The "Good Book" does state that, just wasn't sure if it could be done without lifting the engine.

[Smartin]

1. Remove fan

2. Remove 2 motor mount bolts

3. Remove starter

4. Remove wiring harness rail (this can be done before or after engine is jacked up)

5. Jack engine up 5-6 inches either by using engine hoist or a floor jack (using the harmonic balancer with a block of wood under it)

6. Remove oil pan bolts

7. Most original pans are stuck tight with the factory sealant, so a putty knife or large screwdriver will be needed to get it off. Pry the pan off, you might need a hammer.

***If you do not have dual exhaust, you will need to remove the Y pipe by unbolting the elxhaust pipes from the manifolds.

[Robroy]

You are dead on about the creepers :laugh:, I typically end up with a small stone or gravel blocking one of the wheels so you can’t get back or forward, makes you….:rant::Blasting:
I once used a big piece of Styrofoam (the kind you use for isolating buildings) when working under a car in the middle of the winter. It kept me warm and was fairly soft to lie on.

Thanks for the additional advice Rick and the step by step list Adam, on # 4. Remove wiring harness rail, is this the one going along the oil pan on the same side as the starter?

I do have the starter heat shield and also so the Buick service manual, but I appreciate the offer to scan pages for me Rick!:xyxthumbs:

A friend told me about some kind of plastic thread that you put between the bearing and the main bearing cap and then tightened the nuts. Then you take off main bearing cap again and depending on how flat the thread have become, you get an indication on how worn your crank is (tolerance). I assume this should be done with a new bearing.
It stroke my mind that this would probably give you an idea if the crank bearing part is out of round too depending on how straight that thread looked after being squeezed between the bearing cap and the bearing.

If it shows to be a bad rod bearing I’m going for replacing all of them and maybe also the main bearings.
Before doing it I will however drop the accessories belts just to exclude them, give the fly wheel another close look and do that stethoscope thing again from under this time which requires me going down to the local garage again :rolleyes:

Stay tuned for more later….;)

[Smartin]

Thanks for the additional advice Rick and the step by step list Adam, on # 4. Remove wiring harness rail, is this the one going along the oil pane on the same side as the starter?




Yes, two bolts hold it on.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Hey Per

How about you fly Adam over to Sweden, he'll do the work and you can hook him up with a few busty Swedish blondes to rock his world:laugh::laugh:

[Smartin]

hmmm...I have some free time coming up in December!

[Robroy]

Hey Per

How about you fly Adam over to Sweden, he'll do the work and you can hook him up with a few busty Swedish blondes to rock his world:laugh::laugh:
Now that’s an idea :D, what if I threw in some spare parts for the 58 together with the blondes to spice it up even further…:Brow: :D :laugh:

Frankly, you would be more than welcome Adam to visit me if you should come this way but I do recommend coming during the summer when all the car shows are on and the weather is nice.
There has been a roomer about Ryanair (www.ryanair.com) planning to start flying the Atlantic which will get down the prices for sure. As today it’s hard find anything under 1000 dollars for a round-trip ticket to cross the pond

[Robroy]

Today I dropped all the accessories belts on the engine.
The generator belt came off first, piece of a cake. Next was the long one to the AC, a little trickier but off it went too.
While working with loosen the compressor, I discovered a real loose bolt and nut right under it. I could have sworn I had checked all bolts to be tightened, but this one was nearly invisible. Could it be the cause to my rattling noise I asked myself? :eek: Well stranger things have happened and it was definitely very loose, so I started the work with tightening it which should to be easier said than done. It was totally impossible to reach the head of the bolt inside the compressor bracket, but after a long struggle I managed to wedge in a screwdriver between the bolt head and the bracket edge, so the nut on the other side could be tightened.

I put back the belts again and went out for a drive to get the engine warmed up, I didn’t really dare to think it might be this easy :rolleyes:, I pictured myself tap-dancing in the garage :beers: and giving very embarrassed excuses :o here on the forum buuuuut when I came back on the driveway and rev the engine, the noise was still there :rolleyes:. Back to square one.

I then got all the belts off, power steering pump belt was a tricky one, seems like they may have put on a too tight belt, but I finally got it off by wedging it off with two screwdrivers.
With all belts off the noise is still there, so I can now definitely exclude the accessories as the cause. One step forward after all :rooleyes2:

[EEE]

Have you tried to listen with one of these, but with just a metal rod on the end? I've heard that you can even use just cut off broom stick too.

http://scrubsetcinc.com/media/products/classic%202_2.jpg

[Robroy]

Have you tried to listen with one of these, but with just a metal rod on the end? I've heard that you can even use just cut off broom stick too.

http://scrubsetcinc.com/media/products/classic%202_2.jpg
Yep, I have. I took the car to the local garage here and the mechanic used a screwdriver to listen against the oil pan and transmission while I was behind the wheel operating the throttle. However, at that particular occasion the noise wasn’t there :rooleyes2:, probably because the engine had cooled off while I was waiting for him getting another car done.

I’m gone call him and make another appointment next week, at the same time we could give the fly wheel another inspection. With the car up on a lift you get a much better chance to see any possible cracks in it.

[Robroy]

Today I dropped all the accessories belts on the engine.
The generator belt came off first, piece of a cake. Next was the long one to the AC, a little trickier but off it went too.
While working with loosen the compressor, I discovered a ........
I forgot to mention one cool detail, while test running the engine without the belts I used a nylon stocking as a fan belt to run the water pump and avoid the engine getting overheated.
I've always heard about people doing that when standing on the side of the road with a broken fan belt, but I’ve never tried it myself :laugh:.

It worked just fine! :beers:

[centurion 455 ragtop]

So you mean that next time my wife finds a nice pair of nylons in the glove box I can tell her they are for the engine in case of a fan belt breaking....?:p Yep that will go over well:spank: :D

[Robroy]

So you mean that next time my wife finds a nice pair of nylons in the glove box I can tell her they are for the engine in case of a fan belt breaking....?:p Yep that will go over well:spank: :D
Yep :D, using this method as a fan belt replacement could lead to serious misunderstandings if not being careful.
Imagine yourself trying to help a stranded female motorist with a broken fan belt asking her to take off her pantyhose, such could lead to a lot of :mad: :spank: :spank: :mad: :Blasting:
:laugh: :laugh:

[Robroy]

Talked to my BMW mechanic this morning who gave me a good tip; pull the ignition cables one by one and see if the noise disappears on any of them, and if not, its not likely to be a rod bearing. Why didn’t I think of that myself :spank::Dou:
When I described the noise for him he thought it sounded more like it could be a camshaft bearing..hm..
Both interesting leads for sure :coffee::confused2:

[The German]

It´s a very interesting thead, Per, and I wonder how the story will end. Hope for you that it will turn to an easier way than expected until now !
Sorry that I only can watch your thoughts and informations b/c I´m a greenhorn in these things.

[centurion 455 ragtop]

Talked to my BMW mechanic this morning who gave me a good tip; pull the ignition cables one by one and see if the noise disappears on any of them, and if not, its not likely to be a rod bearing. Why didn’t I think of that myself :spank::Dou:
When I described the noise for him he thought it sounded more like it could be a camshaft bearing..hm..
Both interesting leads for sure :coffee::confused2:

Interesting, good idea there! :coffee: I gave a quick call to Buick Guru John Csordas and close friend who is a certified mechanic by trade and specializes on building Buicks. He agree that if you remove each ignition wire, one at a time and listen under the car each time, the bad rod bearing may not make the knocking noise when the wire is pulled off the plug on that particular cylinder. Reason being is that cylinder will have little to no combustion pressures which will then not be putting any heavy load on that rod and bearing so you won't hear the knocking noise. This is NOT a "tell all definitely it is or isn't" trouble shoot method, BUT it is a great trouble shooting idea and worth a try and may point you in the right direction.

As for the cam bearings making the knocking noise. Positively not when you are dealing with the Buick engines (the older ones). He said maybe with the newer style double overhead cam motors such as the BMW etc it may be a reason but not our style engines. I have to agree with John on this one.

[Robroy]

It´s a very interesting thead, Per, and I wonder how the story will end. Hope for you that it will turn to an easier way than expected until now !
Sorry that I only can watch your thoughts and informations b/c I´m a greenhorn in these things.
Rolf, I’m a greenhorn too, otherwise I wouldn’t be running this by now long thread. But learning new things is part of the fun and also the fact that we every now and then can crack problems working together via this forum! :xyxthumbs:

[Robroy]

Interesting, good idea there! :coffee: I gave a quick call to Buick Guru John Csordas and close friend who is a certified mechanic by trade and specializes on building Buicks. He agree that if you remove each ignition wire, one at a time and listen under the car each time, the bad rod bearing may not make the knocking noise when the wire is pulled off the plug on that particular cylinder. Reason being is that cylinder will have little to no combustion pressures which will then not be putting any heavy load on that rod and bearing so you won't hear the knocking noise. This is NOT a "tell all definitely it is or isn't" trouble shoot method, BUT it is a great trouble shooting idea and worth a try and may point you in the right direction.

As for the cam bearings making the knocking noise. Positively not when you are dealing with the Buick engines (the older ones). He said maybe with the newer style double overhead cam motors such as the BMW etc it may be a reason but not our style engines. I have to agree with John on this one.
Rick, I do appreciate you taking the time to call your friend and Buick specialist about this.
As you say, it’s not a 100% sure method to exclude a rod bearing being the cause, but the absence of a spark will definitely unload the pressure on it.
Did your friend by any chance listen to the recording?

I had the same feeling about the cam bearings being a long shot, but that feeling was only based on the fact that you never heard of those being a problem, just as your friend confirmed.

[Robroy]

The problem with my rattling engine has taken the backseat for a while due to a more serious problem with my house and also to the long rain period we have had here lately; however I plan to continue the trouble shooting this weekend.

Number one on my list is to pull the ignition cables one at the time to see if the noise will change or go away.
Other things I will check are:
- the bolts on the pulley/balancer
- bended dip stick that gets in contact with the crank (long shoot)
- take off the fuel pump and inspect the arm etc
- take off the valve covers to check for loose rockers (long shoot)
- check the bolts on the manifold and timing cover (again)

This Monday I’m going to the local garage to listen under the car with the engine running using a hose or a screwdriver to see if we can pinpoint it this time, unless I found the cause during the weekend of course :rolleyes:.
While we have the car up on the lift, we could also inspect the oil pan for dents and give the fly wheel another close look.

So this Monday evening I will hopefully know a lot more about what this is, tap-dancing or crying?:confused: Well we’ll see..:rooleyes2:

I have a question regarding rod bearings, there are oversized and undersized available, I guess it depends on the wear on the crank of which to choose?
And to find out that, is plastigage* the best method or do a good old micrometer do the job as well?

*Plastigage is a strip of wax which, when installed between a bearing and its journal, flattens or squeezes out to a width inversely ...

[Robroy]

Rick, thanks for your advice and offer to look around for rods to me.
I’m not sure that I need any yet though, but as I mentioned in the post above, I hope to make some steps forward this weekend in finding the cause for the noise.

I will go to SC in Sep, so you are dead on about getting needed parts while I’m there. I was thinking on buying the rod bearings below either way since the price seems right, but…I ran into the question about oversized or not? (also see the post above)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories___BUICK-364-400-401-425-455-430-ROD-BEARINGS-3320CP-020_W0QQitemZ310065482686QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20Acces soriesQQddiZ2811QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p4506.m20.l 1116

[Robroy]

Loose bolts on the pulley/balancer: Checked

Bended dip stick that gets in contact with the crank: Checked

Take off the fuel pump and inspect the arm etc: One of the bolts is pretty hard to access so I think I’ll wait until after we have listened under the car, if we can pinpoint the noise to that area, it goes off then.

Take off the valve covers to check for loose rockers (long shoot): The noise is definitely remote when bended over the engine, so I postpone this one for the moment

Check the bolts on the manifold: Checked

Pull the ignition cables one at the time to see if the noise will change or go away: Did this and I couldn’t really hear any difference on any of them, but since the noise appears best under the engine and I was doing this on my own, its hard to tell for sure. Think I’m gone do it again when I have a helper.
A tip for anyone doing this, pull the ignition cables from the dist, much easier than pulling them on the spark plugs where you also risk getting burned from that hot manifold. Make sure to pull them with a pliers that got isolated handles, it’s also a good idea to wear shoes with rubber soles, both to prevent getting an electrical shock :eek:.

Going to the local garage tomorrow, hopefully we can narrow it down further then…

[Smartin]

hmm...

Have you checked for a cracked flywheel/flexplate?

[Robroy]

hmm...
Have you checked for a cracked flywheel/flexplate?
Yes, but I’m thinking of doing it again, if possible with the car up on a lift this time where you get so much better light than laying under it in my garage.

I can hear it so clear when I sit behind the wheel with the door open and reving the engine, so it does seem to point in that direction....

[EEE]

Take off the fuel pump and inspect the arm etc: One of the bolts is pretty hard to access so I think I’ll wait until after we have listened under the car, if we can pinpoint the noise to that area, it goes off then.





Remember that the damper should be set at TDC when you take the fuel pump out, otherwise it will be hard to put it back in because the cam lobe the the fuel pump arm rests on has to be in a non-load position, otherwise you will be fighting the pump spring when you try to put it back in there. The tricky bolt can be accessed with a small socket wrench, small extension, and long socket, that's how I think I used to get to it. I had a problem with the threads for the pump so it fell out a couple of times, great when you're on the freeway.

[Robroy]

Remember that the damper should be set at TDC when you take the fuel pump out, otherwise it will be hard to put it back in because the cam lobe the the fuel pump arm rests on has to be in a non-load position, otherwise you will be fighting the pump spring when you try to put it back in there. The tricky bolt can be accessed with a small socket wrench, small extension, and long socket, that's how I think I used to get to it. I had a problem with the threads for the pump so it fell out a couple of times, great when you're on the freeway.
Thanks for the tip Kimson :xyxthumbs:

[Robroy]

Took the car to the local garage yesterday and this time I had made sure to get engine real hot for the trouble shooting. The mechanic listened as I rev the engine and yes he could hear it this time. He crawled under as I pointed out to him it could be heard most clearly there, listened and then went for a screwdriver. As I kept revving the engine he listened with the screwdriver all over the engine (as I have done many times before) and finally stopped at the intake. I think it’s a lifter he said, but let’s go over to Tommy’s place (another local garage) and let him listen to it too. So we did and Tommy came to the same conclusion. While we were standing there an old man suddenly showed up and both the mechanics shouted under the hood, great! Just the man we need, timing couldn’t be better! :beers:
The man which looked to be around 70 approached the car with a big grin :D and said, well well, what do we have here, a true survivor from the 70’s! wow! He circled the car as his smile got broader and then suddenly and very quickly (for a man at that age) laid down to look at the undercarriage, h-ll it looks like is a brand new car, what a sight for a Saturday night :D. The two mechanics then asked him to listen to the noise in my engine, which he did now with a very serious look on his face, lifter he then said, but nothing to be too worried about. You could try to put in a can of Wynn’s lifter treatment, or do a few quick oil changes.

My own thoughts:
What goes against it being a lifter is the fact that it only appears when the engine is warmed up, according to the three experts it should appear more when engine is cold and get better when it’s warm, but then there is the fact that my choke keeps the up the rpm way above the range where the noise appears when the engine is cold…so.
I also find it strange that the noise appears most clearly from under the car if it’s a lifter :confused:, but noise can bounce and fool you, I know that from own experience.
While driving home I was thinking that I had probably like 70 years experience in those three men which certainly carry some weight, besides, a lifter treatment can’t hurt so I’m gone try that.

I found out later that the old man was a retired car mechanic who was very much into American classic cars and had restored several together with his son.

[Robroy]

This Sunday I poured in a can of Wynn’s after warming up the engine. Then I went driving the whole afternoon so it could get to work. Went down to Ystad to check out my friends new 58 Plymouth Fury among other things…. a Christine car :eek:
Went I got back in the evening the rattle was still there same as before which I kind of had expected even if a part of me was hoping for a miracle :rolleyes:.