What oil to use in a Big Block

[Robroy]

I’m a bit curious about what oil you guys use in your engines.

Myself I have always used a high quality Mineral oil (traditional type) on my older vehicles and changed the oil rather often. For older cars mainly driven during the summer season, this is good enough many say. But then you always have the hydraulic lifters that you want to keep clean and prevent from sticking. From that perspective maybe the Half Syntectic type is a better option? :confused4:
I think I have seen small cans with oil admixture that are supposed to prevent the lifters from sticking. Anyone who knows if these are any good?

[gashog]

I have a motorcycle which has solid lifters.
The motorcycle will tick badly in the summertime,when temperatures are really hot.
Changing to a synthetic oil quiets the lifters,even when using some light 5w30 oil.
Sitting right next to the engine without a shield like some heavy sheet metal,there is something to be said for the lubricating qualities of synthetic.
Synthetic oil is made from a pure gas,no microscopic contaminants like conventional oil,which will turn to sludge in your engine due to high heat.
No matter how well conventional oil is refined,they cannot remove all the microscopic contaminants that is present,from the extraction process from the earth.
I am thoroughly convinced synthetic oil greatly increases engine life.

[EEE]

I use what ever happens to be on sale, and change it every 3000 miles. If it says high mileage on it, I'll pick that one over the regular stuff. I think the viscocity is usually 10-40..

[Robroy]

The reason for not using a Syntectic oil in an old (older than 25-30 years) engine that I always have heard is that it could unlace old contaminants that may get the oil channels clogged, this due to that it cleans the engine so much better than the traditional Mineral oil.
On an old but renovated engine this should not be a problem, since it has been cleaned out during the renovation.

[The German]

The following I copied from : http://www.buickcenturion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294 :

A friend told me that a special oil additive named MATHÉ CLASSIC MOTOROIL ADDITIVE would be the best one can do. It is added with 10% to the normal oil. It would clean the motor, minimize wear, oil consumption, fuel consumption and corrosion; further it would bring more power because the cylinder is better sealed to the piston and the friction is reduced; last it would ensure a longer life of the motor:
http://www.mathy.de/index.php?page=pro_classic

This page is written only in German language but one can copy parts of the text and bring it to translation with google for instance. Interesting is a movie (German: "Film") which shows a test of this oil additive - one can view it here :
http://www.mathy.de/index.php?page=mathytest

It´s not cheap (46 Euro per liter and half a liter is needed for the motor), but they say that one can extend the oil change intervals to more than double as long as without it; only the oil filter has to be changed and MATHÉ oil has to be added and than one could drive up to 100 000 km without a complete change of oil (that seems to be too long to me, but with a motor that is used only at low rpm that could be no problem).

I´m thinking about to buy a liter ... .

They have such oil for transmissions also :
http://www.mathy.de/index.php?page=a_getriebe
_____________________

Rolf

==================
... and this was Per´s reply :

Oils and oil additives are indeed a deep subject to dive into. There seem to be an endless collection and brands to choose from. Car mechanics often indicates that these additives promise a lot more than they actually deliver and that it’s a way of making some extra cash for the oil industry. Others say that you got to follow the development and use the new products .
Question is what is best for our old engines that were designed 37 years ago?
I remember someone; think it was Bob or Brian that uses a zinc additive when he changes the oil. This since the oils now days don’t have that and our engines were designed for oil with zinc in it. That makes scene to me.
Otherwise I’m rather old school on the oil front and uses average oils that I change often together with a filter change. I use the Half Synthetic type on my daily drivers.
I haven’t changed the oil on the Buick yet since it looks like new.

Have to admit that I’m a bit curious about what folks in general put in their 455’s, traditional mineral oil based, Half Synthetic or Full Synthetic?
...
__________________
Per

=================

My opinion to the last question is based on the information I got from some friends who have old cars since some years : I´ll use normal refined mineral oil of the specification 15W40 or 20W40 - and I´m thinking about that special additive that I named at the beginning of this post (MATHÉ CLASSIC MOTOROIL ADDITVE). But with Per I´m interested to read some answers of some other Centurion drivers.

Please let us know your secrets regarding this question ! ===> :user:
____________________
Rolf

[Smartin]

10w40 is fine for your motor, Rolf. I wouldn't go any higher than 15w40.

[Robroy]

Rolf,
I took a second look on that MATHÉ CLASSIC MOTOROIL ADDITVE page when I noticed that it was designed for older engines (before 1970), that plus the fact that your friends have recommended it from good results in their classic cars, puts it in a better position.
It may very well be a fine product, it’s just that there are so many retailers selling “magic” on cans that you get a bit sceptical if they really add anything or not.:rolleyes:

[The German]

Per, I first thought the same and was very sceptical, but after reading all the information given on their site I changed my opinion. They produce this additive since a lot of years and the German technical control institute (TÜV) has proven it and given a certificate for quality. Several people wrote articles in the press about it - always with positive comments. It seems to be really a good additive.
________________________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Sounds like it is worth a try.
If you decide to try it, please let us know your impressions.:user:

[The German]

Per, the oil in my car is still clean and looking like new; from Adam I know it´s of the specification 10W40. I´ll drive it until the end of this year and than I´ll change oil and filter and add the additive. I´ll drive this mixture the next years only changing the filter and add some new oil with additive once a year how it´s described in the information of the additive-producer. But I´ll measure the content of acids in the oil twice a year together with looking for smallest abrasives in the oil by using a microscope.

I´ll see how it works and I´ll keep you informed - but it will last ... .

Yesterday I phoned with the producer and asked for information in english language: they will send me some papers (they don´t have them in electronic files) so I´ll scan them and post them here.
__________________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Sounds like a plan Rolf!

[Eric B]

I have always used 10W40 Valvoline/Pennzoil/Quaker State and had cars go up to 200,000 miles without any issues. I recently changed to Rotella due to popular opinion that new motor oils don't adequately protect the camshaft. Although so far I have never had a camshaft go bad.

I also use Rotella synthetic on my 73 GS because it has a new engine. If you use synthetic be prepared for lots of oil leaks unless it is sealed up tight with sealer on all new gaskets. Including neoprene seals front and rear. Even then it manages to seep out here and there.

[Robroy]

Thanks for sharing Eric,
What you say kind of confirms my thoughts. The synthetic oils do a better job lubricating an engine, there’s no doubt about that. But in an old and untouched engine that has been run on traditional mineral oil all its life, it’s probably not such a good idea to use.

Back in history I had some issues with sticky lifters on both Chrysler and Chevy small blocks. Since I like to believe that the oil has a lot to do with such problems, I started this thread out of curiosity of what other people choose in the “oil bar” to their old V8’s.

[The German]

...I phoned with the producer and asked for information in english language: they will send me some papers (they don´t have them in electronic files) so I´ll scan them and post them here.
__________________
Rolf

Now they told me that those information-papers in english language are nearly 10 years old and they don´t want to hand them out because the information is too old now. To the end of this year they will print new papers and they plan to bring some information about their products in english into their internet site also. So we have to wait.

The additive does not act like a synthetic oil, it brings molecules of the oil basis of the mixture in the motor more together and probably existing leaks are reduced, not increased. So this additive could be of advantage in this point too. :xyxthumbs:
_______________
Rolf

[The German]

Today I again phoned with the oil additive producer in Germany asking for information-papers in english language. They told me that they stopped the plan to give all their information in english language because in several foreign countries the market is filled with a lot of additives so that they don´t plan to go to those markets and therefore they would not invest in translations.

But they actualized their internet site and for all of you it´s possible to use the translation by Google !!! - Here are 2 links I pepared :
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mathy.de%2Fgewerbe%2F index.php%3Fpage%3Dtestdokumentation&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF8
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mathy.de%2F&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=de&ie=UTF8

So you all can read nearly all their information because several (not all) further links on this site will work in English !! Hope it will be very interesting for you (?) !
_______________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Have you done any oil change yet Rolf? And if so, did you put in the Miller Classic 20-50W together with that additive?

I’m going shopping for oil any day now and I think I will go for the Valvoline Durablend 10-40W (Semi-synthetic)
http://www.valvolineeurope.com/english/products/all_products/lubricants/passenger_car_motor_oils?CID=1351

or the Shell Helix Super 10-40W which is a traditional mineral based oil of high quality

[The German]

Have you done any oil change yet Rolf? And if so, did you put in the Miller Classic 20-50W together with that additive? ... ...

No, Per, my oil was nearly new and up to now I only drove 1600 km, so I will change the oil in summer. I will do it with the additive first (that means replace 0,5 liter of the old oil with additive - drive the car over another 500 km - then change the whole oil). The additive will clean up the engine as described by the producers (have a look to their information with the link in my last post).
And then I will use the Millers Classic oil, because it´s designed especially for those older cars (it has a high percentage of zinc for instance). I´m not sure whether I´ll add the additive to that oil because it has several additives anyway - that might be enough (?).
But during driving with the first mixture I´ll try to notice every chance of the engine behavior and mileage. If there would be something important I would tell here and perhaps also use the additive with the Millers oil (if the engine starts better or is idling better or mileage increased significantly when driving with the additive in the old oil).
__________________
Rolf

[Robroy]

I just read a post on the v8forum that was strongly advising NOT to use an 20-50 oil in a stock high mileage engine….

http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?p=1130679#post1130679 (post 8)

Don’t know how correct this is, think the thread were referring to buick 350’s, but I thought I’d share the info….

[centurion 455 ragtop]

I haven't gone through all the threads, but I'll give you my take. My engine I did rebuild as stock with a mild mid range cam for towing. As for oil I change it well below 3,000 miles. Most times on long distance towing to a Buick meet I would change the oil before and after including the trans fluid. As for normal driving I would say about 2,000 miles along with the filter just to play the safe side of things. I use a System 1 filter which is re-useable and you can view the inside of the filter. http://www.system1filters.com/oil_filters.htm

As for oil I use either Castro or Penzoil 10-40 non-synthetic. I know synthetic is better, it,s just that it would be a waste of money as I go thru maybe 4-5 oil changes a season putting on maybe 3-4 thousand miles total a year on the car.

The additive that is needed is zinc, unfortunately in our country the tree huggers (Al Gore and company) have managed to eliminate almost all of it in oil. The zinc is what gives you that last ditch protection on the bearings. If you can find an additive that contains it I would recommend that.

Just be leary of the old "Snake Oil" do it all additives. If you change your oil at 3,500 or less miles on average driving, then I would just buy a good quaility engine oil, like it was said earlier wait for the sales and stock up, nothing fancy needed, and do the filter with every oil change too.

As for racing, or frequent street romps, well maybe a higher quality or synthetic may be in order. With my all out racecar GS455 I use Royal Purple Race #21 (5-30 weight) which last fall was somewhere in the range of $220 per five gallon pail :eek:

[The German]

I just read a post on the v8forum that was strongly advising NOT to use an 20-50 oil in a stock high mileage engine….
... ....

Thanks, Per, for your information, but I´m sure that it will be no problem; I talked with the producer from England about that question in November last year and he ensured me that Millers 30-W50 is good for our engines. Also read the information about the oil here (PDF-File) :
http://www.millersoils.net/1_downloads/literature/classic/M-tt_CLASSIC_ENGINE_OIL.pdf

And the MIllers oil has the higher percentage of zinc ! Have a look back here:
http://www.buickcenturion.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3047&highlight=Millers#post3047

And if I will have good experience with the Mathy´s additive I will use this in mixture with that Millers oil. But I will not change the oil after only 3000 miles - I will try to measure it´s content of acids and looking for smallest abrasives in the oil (as told in post from 06-30-2007 12:40 PM) and change the oil only when I´ll come to the conclusion that it would be necessary - even if I would need may be 8000 miles or more !! The producers of Mathys additive say that it would be possible to drive up to 120.000 km with the same oil if used in combination with Mathys additive and if you change the oil filter when normally you would change the oil ! And that was tested with old cars in Germany; the technical control department (TÜV) tested it also and found that this additive is a very good one. So I´ll try to find out whether it´s good enough for our engines too.

Thanks also for your information, Rick.
I´ll keep you informed about my experience during the year !
_________________
Rolf

[The German]

Per, I again looked through the information I have about Millers oil and Mathy oil additive. First I found within the Millers site was :
>>Cars and motorcycles of the 1960 and 1970 years:
Engine:
Use in any case, a 20W-50 (Miller Classic 20W-50), but not thinner (10W-40 or 15W-40) – Oil ! For sporty driving or long motorway routes Miller has a special oil - "Classic 20W-50 sport".<<
And I saw that they are busy with installing a database to the site where they give advice to nearly every car in the world. Centurions will be listed also - but of course I don´t know how long that will last.

Next is that I want you understanding why I will test the Mathy Oil Additive.
The important content of this additive are :
- a metal-organic combination with hydrocarbon fluids (based on zinc and molybdenum) which acts as an Extreme Pressure (EP) additive and is part of every other good oil of course, but if added to a normal oil it enriches this one (friction reduction);
- long molecules of EP-fat-acids which enrich the friction reducers in the oil which are acting at low temperatures;
- antioxidants which help to avoid oxidation of all oil components so that the oil could be used longer than normally;
- detergents which clean the metal of all inner motor parts and keep it clean.

In German car forums are many stories of good experiences with this additive and it´s used in some vintage car museums also. Mostly they say that some abnormal noise or vibration they had was gone or reduced after using the additive. Some say that the car would drive a little bit faster and would have higher mileage with it. On the other hand some people say that they don´t trust in the effectiveness of the additive and they never would use it; they trust in regular oil and regular oil change cycles.

So I decided to test it in my old oil first and if I´ll find some positive results I´ll use it in the fresh oil also.
____________
Rolf

[Robroy]

Rolf,
The reason for my post # 18 was mainly to alert you to double check your 20-50W choice since the thread on the v8forum pointed out a danger using that range of viscosity in an old Buick engine. I also remember Adam recommending you the 10-40W in another thread at one occasion. After reading the v8forum thread a second time, the warning for using the 20-50W might be in combination with a high volume oil pump…..:confused4:

If we look at the facts regarding viscosity, the oil should not get too thick when it’s cold and not too thin when its warm. So it’s a little depending on where you live and when you drive (summer or winter) of what to pick. I checked the 73 Buick manual yesterday and it recommended an 5-30W oil for customers in Canada and I like to think they did that due to the fact that it’s usually colder in Canada than in the US.
I normally don’t drive much during winter but I always regularly start up the engine just to exercise it. The most critical wear on any engine is when started up cold and the colder it gets, the more critical. So based on this I decided to go for 10-40W.

Regarding that Additive it sure sounds like a fine product and it got the desired zinc that modern oils are missing. So stick to your plan and test the product and then report back to us of what you think of it.

[Smartin]

20w50 shouldn't be a problem in either of your cars, unless you drive them in temps below40-50 degrees F. The "cold" weight can get thick when it's cold outside, and can make it difficult for the engine to pump the cold oil. That's why I recommended 10w40.

[The German]

Per, my Chassis Service Manual for the 1971 Centurions lists the engine oil recommendations this way :
- above freezing (+32°F // 0°C) : SAE* 10W**-30 or -40 or 20W-40,
- below freezing (+32°F to 0°F // 0°C to –17,8°C) : SAE 10, 10W-30 or -40 or 5W-30
- below 0°F // -17,5°C : SAE 5W, 5W-20 or -30
And below this list is written: "SAE 5 and 5W-20 oils are not recommended for sustained high speed driving. SAE 30 oils may be used at temperatures above 60°F // 15,5°C."
[ *: SAE : Society of Automotive Engineers, who defined the first classes of viscosities of oil in 1911 and ** : W : winter, which marks the viscosity of the oil at cold temperature ]

My Owner´s Manual lists it as shown in the picture below with an added note : "SAE 30 oils may be used at temperatures above 40°F."

1.The upper grade
I´ll not drive my car below freezing, mostly I´ll drive at temperatures above 60°F // 15,5°C; so my oil should be between a SAE 30 and a SAE 10W-30 and I decided to take the higher upper grade of SAE ...-50 because I want to be sure with it at very hot summer days also. SAE ...-30 would be of a slightly higher risk when driving a longer tour in summer because often the normal oil temperature goes up to 120°C and in case of a longer driving with A/C running in a 35 to 40°C air and only 4.7 litres oil in the crankcase it could go significantly higher. (Only to compare : My BMW with 6 smaller cylinders has 6.75 litres (!) and it´s a diesel which means that the temperature of the exhaust gas is much lower than normal gas driven cars ! I guess your 8-cylindric BMW has 7.5 litres oil – 50% more than our old Buicks ! So to me it seems better to have the ...-40 oil [BTW : I have 5W-40 synthetic oil in the BMW but the car could be driven with 10W-40 also, because we don´t have temperatures below -20°C in winter ].)
Next thought I had was this one : When my frost plug was changed I looked inside of the cooling system of the motor and I tested the inner wall with my fingers – what I found was that there is a 2 to may be 5mm thick layer of something like a jelly, perhaps it´s the result of using some liquid that stops a water leak when given to the engines cooling water; anyway the specialist of Opel said he would not try to get that liquid out of the system because this could cause new leaks and so I did, but the cooling grade of the engine of former days is not the same today of course. So that was a second reason for me to choose the ...-50 oil.
So in this point we took nearly the same choice, Per.

2.The lower grade
The temperature spread of the Millers 20W-50 goes from -15°C to 160°C; so that´s a really wide enough spread which I´ll use only far away from its ends. SAE 10W-40 spreads normally from -30°C to 160°C; so that would be better for driving below freezing. But this oil always is slightly thinner than the SAE 20W-... which means that it´s molecules are a bit shorter and that allows it easier to go through smallest leaks. My engine still has a very small leak which I couldn´t stop totally; I only reduced it. The SAE 20W-... could help a little bit to reduce that leak (that´s only a hope of course – but perhaps it really helps a bit).
So I´m very sure that my choice will be the best for my car and my driving conditions.

On the other hand I really thank you for your warning, Per ! One never know whether there are some other backgrounds. And when writing all these information I not only improved my English but also learned more about oil and its additives because I looked very close to several information regarding that topic. Last this thread probably will be of help for others too and that´s what we want in the first place – be of help for each of us.

Thanks to you all again – for all your information (not only in this case) !
_________________
Rolf

[The German]

I got an email from Brian Chase, Oils Solutions (Europe) Ltd., exclusive distributor for Millers Oils for Germany and Austria and Mr. Chase asked me if I could post this information here because he doesn´t want to act here as a member of our group. So here is his info.:

Having read this thread it is interesting to note that same amount of confusion over the correct type of oil to use exists in America as it does in Germany. Millers Oils produces what is probably the widest range of classic oils available worldwide - we try to provide an oil that is best suited for each individual application. Our recommendations are based on a combination of the original Manufacturer's specification, developments in lubrication technology (Millers is a world leader in this area) and experience - both personal and that of our thousands of satisfied customers.

I would recommend Millers Classic 20W50 for the Centurion - unfortunately I don't think Millers is easily available in America, though we are looking to appoint a Distributor. Beware when comparing viscosity - the SAE recommendations are somewhat vague and it is possible to have what appear o be similar oils (i.e. 20W50) that can vary up to 26% in the actual viscosity! I appreciate the comments regarding the use of a thicker oil with the lifters, but have found that the cold flow properties of Millers are so good there should be no problems down to -10°C.

I notice the reference also to zink, or ZDDP as we call it. There have been many reports of late regarding increased wear in older engines, especially with regard to the camshaft, when using modern oils. Unfortunately the greens have succeeding in reducing the level of ZDDP to the extent that there is insufficient to protect the metals used in older engines. Millers ensure that more than an adequate amount of ZDDP is present in all Classic and Motorsport Oils.

I would add a word of caution regarding the use of additives. We at Millers are basically against using them - our oils are of such high quality that we feel most are a) unnecessary and b) can eventually cause a reaction with our own carefully selected additives. It is our considered opinion that there is nothing to beat using a high quality oil particularly developed for the vehicle in question and changing regularly. Some additives on the market can actually cause similar symptoms to glazing of the bores and will, over a period of time, actually reduce power and increase oil consumption.

Brian Chase, Oils Solutions (Europe) Ltd. Exclusive Distributor for Millers Oils for Germany and Austria. www.millersoils.de (German) or www.millersoils.net (English)

So far his information.

All I´ve learned up to now from several sources is that ZDDP really is a very important additive for our engines and that the most wear of the engine occurs during starting it with the cold oil, which means that an oil has to be thin enough to prevent cavitation during the engines start and its warming up. And I also learned that most people have their very own thoughts about the question "what is the best oil for the big block engines ?", so that we would never find a recommendation which could be accepted to be the best by all Centurion drivers. That means everyone has to find his own decision - it is something like a creed ! Also my comments and the Millers Oil Info. should be only an information for those who are thinging about "what oil to use in a Big Block".

Hope everyone will find his special OIL !

[Robroy]

Interesting info Rolf!

Seems like Millers 20-50 is a fine product although one have to remember that this person is talking in his own interest, but as you say it’s up to each and one of us to decide for their own...

Either way I’m sure that the Miller oil is not a bad choice!