Rear window rust project

[Robroy]

Some of you may remember my thread about fixing some rust in the trunk this summer.
(http://www.buickcenturion.com/forums/showthread.php?1498-Fixing-rust-in-the-trunk)

Well now its time to deal with the reason for that rusty trunk, the rust issues around my rear window that got the trunk wet in the first place.

Step one was peeling off all sealing compound around the trim before taking the car to the car glass shop to have the window out.
There seemed to be three kinds of sealing compounds; lots of traditional bathroom silicone especially under the lower part of the trim, some extremely hard brown glue and butyl sealer that I have put there myself.

I used a piece of plastic to peel not to damage the vinyl, it came off fairly easy.

[Robroy]

The clips under lower trim part had rusted into powder which explains all the silicone there; I’m gone need new ones for sure. Anyone who knows where to get them and the proper way to attach them?

[Robroy]

And the window is out!…..went like a charm and they only charged me 60 dollar which seemed more than fair to me :xyxthumbs:.

[Robroy]

As expected the worst damage seems to be at the lower parts while the upper seems to be ok.
It will show better though when I have loosened the vinyl to look under…:tonge2:

[Gum,beest]

Fortunately the repair that is needed looks minor
Do you know what you are gonna do
I hear good thing about pre treatment with POR15 and than paint diluted with Owatrall

[Robroy]

Do you know what you are gonna do
I hear good thing about pre treatment with POR15 and than paint diluted with Owatrall

Yes, I think so.
To get started I need to figure where to safely stash my rear window that is currently lying in the trunk :confused4:.

Then I will clean up the last sealing remains, get the vinyl trim off, after that I plan to use heat gun to carefully loosen the vinyl.
Most likely I will also take the trunk lid off to better access the bad areas.

At this stage I know I have holes that need welding in the corners. A friend that is a sheet metal worker has promised to help me with that, we’ll lend his neighbours MIG.

The POR15 and Owatrall sound interesting for treating those areas that can't be blasted/wire wheeled.
Wonder if they are available here?

[Robroy]

The POR15 and Owatrall sound interesting for treating those areas that can't be blasted/wire wheeled.
Wonder if they are available here?
I just checked and they seem both to be available here, Owatrol is the most interesting for my use I think

[Gum,beest]

The POR15 converts any remaining rust to non active state so it won't go any further
Then the Owatroll with the paint forms a barrier to prevent any new rust from forming
Some guys over here treat there undercarriage this way

[Robroy]

Also found this vender with a huge assortment of fasteners.

http://www.thecliplink.com/index.php?target=products&mode=search&subcats=Y&type=extended&avail=Y&pshort=Y&pfull=Y&pname=Y&cid=0&q=gm

The problem is to find the correct products.
Below quote is from their web page
“We are unable to recommend a clip or fastener based on the year, make or model of a vehicle. You must provide an OEM # for us to cross over. In order to get the OEM #, most folks contact their local dealership or where they purchased the vehicle from.”

This one looks right though, anyone who can verify?
http://www.thecliplink.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=2959

I thought I’d buy new clips for the lower vinyl trim as well while at it, and I guess I will need some kind of rivet to attach the window trim clips too?

All advice is very welcome!

[Gum,beest]

I don't know what the clips look like but you can try this site http://www.mrgusa.com/
The guys that i have posted a picture of when rebuilding the windshield landing used weld studs
They use to hammer out any dents on double layered body panels
Sorry i don't know how they are called but i hope you know what i mean

[Robroy]

The POR15 converts any remaining rust to non active state so it won't go any further
Then the Owatroll with the paint forms a barrier to prevent any new rust from forming
Some guys over here treat there undercarriage this way
Thanks for the clarification Erik, in other words the Owatrol is mainly a primer with some special characteristics, right?

[Gum,beest]

Thanks for the clarification Erik, in other words the Owatrol is mainly a primer with some special characteristics, right?

It is an oil that can be mixed with primer or paint and gives it rust resistend qualitys
On its own you can use it as a primer but you always need to apply a paint layer to seal it otherwise it isn't effective anymore

[Robroy]

It’s obvious that I need to study these products a bit more.

My plan for rust fighting is in first hand old school methods (grinding & blasting), in the way they are possible of course.

The chemical options are indeed interesting too, just need to learn more about them.

On the POR15 web site it said that the product could under some circumstances be sensitive to UV-light and extreme humidity which make me a little doubtful to use it in my case.

Thanks for the link to the fasteners vendor, I will check it out!

[The German]

Per, now I hope that you can read German good enough to understand the main things or that you will know or find someone who could help you b/c here is the best website for restauration of cars I know of :
http://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/index.html

They have everything you will need for killing corrosion and they give lots of information to the products they are selling :
http://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/de/service_kauf_index.html or
http://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/de/service_downloads.html and
http://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/de/programm_rostschutz.html !!

You also could download their catalog where you can find more details.

Perhaps it would be sufficient for you to use the Google translation - I hope so for you - for example the infos about Owatrol - you will get them in Swedish by a click on "Owatrol" here :
http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.korrosionsschutz-depot.de%2Fde%2Fservice_downloads.html&sl=de&tl=sv&hl=&ie=UTF-8

I´m a bit late with that but had a looong weekend away from home - without PCs !

Good luck, Per !

[Robroy]

Thanks Rolf, I will look into it!

[Robroy]

I managed to get away from the other duties tonight to spend an hour in the garage.

Peeled off the window sealing all the way along the rusty section.
The edge seems fairly solid expect from the corners, but that was expected.
I was pleased to see that all the clips holders (rivets) seem to sit ok everywhere, at least at this point.

The odds of keeping the old vinyl look a little darker though. As you can see it has shrink a lot during the years or was cut too short from the beginning, maybe both.
I was thinking of if I somehow can glue on a new piece of vinyl under the old to make it long enough to go down in the slot and hide the joint under the trim.
A new top is the way to go to make it perfect, I know. It’s just that the top is spotless otherwise and a new one here is at least 1000 dollar (top + installation)

[Robroy]

After a long period with various stuff keeping me from the garage, I managed to put in a few hours this weekend.

The vinyl came off nicely and in one piece, only small pieces of the inner layer didn’t let go on some places.

I had heated up the garage for starters (35 F* outside today) and worked with an adjustable heat-gun.

So far so good :), next step will be rust fighting.

To be continued ….

[73 Centurion]

It's amazing there are holes right through the metal in one place but the holes for the trim a few inches away look perfect! It looks like you're catching this problem before it gets out of hand.

I love seeing the progress pictures.

John

[Robroy]

Today I spent some hours scraping off old window sealing compound.
Next weekend I plan to do the blasting so my friend with the MIG can do the welding soon after that.
Don’t think I need to take the trunk lid off as planned since the areas that need welding are at the corners and thereby easy to access.

[EEE]

Ouch.. are you going to blast that area? Hopefully that's all the bad metal there is, so you'll just have to add some tiny patches there.

[Robroy]

A friend who’s restoring a 68 Eldorado told me about a method to soften up old stiff vinyl.
Mix 50% glycerol and 50% alcohol. Then you brush the mixture on time after time and finally the effect sets in, think I’ve gone give it a try. Mine is pretty hard, especially now when its cold.

[Robroy]

Ouch.. are you going to blast that area? Hopefully that's all the bad metal there is, so you'll just have to add some tiny patches there.

Yep, that’s the plan.
But I know what you mean about blasting could expose more bad areas than expected, but then again it’s better to face the bitter truth and deal with it once and for all even if its a pain….

[The German]

Wish you all the luck you´ll need for winning that battle as nice as you want it, Per !!

[birminghamer]

The vinyl top may not be as much of an issue as you think. I used to put these on for extra cash back in school, there's really not that much to it. Buy a high grade top and use the 3M spray adhesive. Get your top warm so that it will stretch easily. All in all not a tough project, nothing like convertible tops at all. Top and glue you should be able to do this for about $300 or less.

[Robroy]

Wish you all the luck you´ll need for winning that battle as nice as you want it, Per !!

Thanks Rolf,
I really would like to test the chemical rust fighting/protecting solutions you and Erik recommended, but I don’t have the nerve for it in this kind of project, so I stick to old school methods this time.

I had set of this weekend which is completely free from all other duties (very uncommon) for 100% garage activities, BUT at the last minute I got a really nasty cold so here I sit coughing and sneezing and can’t do a darn thing to get further with my project, very frustrating :(

[Robroy]

The vinyl top may not be as much of an issue as you think. I used to put these on for extra cash back in school, there's really not that much to it. Buy a high grade top and use the 3M spray adhesive. Get your top warm so that it will stretch easily. All in all not a tough project, nothing like convertible tops at all. Top and glue you should be able to do this for about $300 or less.

Hi Birminghamer,

Very interesting info and thanks for sharing it!
I’ve heard horror stories of pretty experienced car guys tearing their hair off trying to install a vinyl top (so maybe you are more handy than you realize ;)).
I’ve also heard that it makes a lot of difference if the top being installed is fairly newly manufactured or not since the material tend to shrink with age, same deal with new seat interiors you pull over the old seat frame which also can get too small when aged.

300 certainly is fair enough for a brand new top installed and ready but I doubt I can make it sit nice since I’m the kind of guy having trouble putting up wallpaper without starting kicking the walls :laugh:.
On the other hand I already have the 3M spray adhesive which I got from friend and it’s “only” the cost of a top if I fail compared to paying 1000 having it done at the shop (top included)

Where do you typically get the premium quality vinyl tops these days?

And in what order do you glue it on? Starting from the rear or from the front window?

[birminghamer]

The last one I got came from Kee, they still make them here domestically and the grain is correct. The most important thing is to get the center line dead on, once that is done the rest is not that bad. You can pull it up and reposition as you go but again if the seams are correct then you are usually in good shape. I always put a fair amount of tension into the material during installation to give it that factory look. You don't want it to appear too soft. Remember that these tops were never padded originally. If you use too much glue and don't let is flash off the solvents you can get a bubble., those are easy to solve IF caught early.
I never had much luck getting them to lay down correctly a second time if there was a lot of age on the material. They seem to dry rot from the inside out. Same thing as seat cover materials not wanting to go back.
Google vinyl top installation, there are several good articles out there. One of the Mopar magazines had a very good one when I did a search. Bottom line, you may want to give it a shot, it's a really rewarding job. This far south the life span used to be about 4 to 5 years if the car spent much time outside, we used to get lots of practice putting them on.

[Robroy]

Thanks again Birminghamer for your very interesting inputs

I checked out Kee’s web page (http://www.keeautotop.com/vinyltops.html) and they seem to sell quality products but I was unable to find any Centurion or LeSabre in their Buick vinyl top assortment. I guess I can call them and check in case it’s just not included in the catalogue.
The Levant L04N49 did however seem to be the right grain and color for me. http://www.keeautotop.com/images/L04_Levant.jpg

Two last questions; How thick layer of glue do you typically put on and how quickly does it “bite” so you can’t reposition the top?

[Robroy]

The blasting isn’t proceeding as fast as I would like to.
The rust is deeper here than in the trunk where I got no holes or caves at all when finished, that was expected though.

For this a rougher rust my compressor is bit too weak (3 hp with a 25 liter tank).
Anyway, I’ve done 33% of the window edge so far and below some picts….

As you can see on pict one, GM used red primer 1973

[EEE]

What kind of material are you using for the blasting?

[Robroy]

What kind of material are you using for the blasting?
I use aluminium silicate, less dusty then ordinary sand and with a little better bite as well

[Robroy]

Hi guys,

Sorry for being a stranger lately.
It started with a computer problem and then followed with an eye problem which made me cut down my computer time to an absolute minimum.
On top of that my girlfriend has been hospitalized lately, it’s a long story but she is currently doing fairly ok and is slowly reaching the end of the recovering line.

Guess most of you have forgotten about this thread by now, but here’s an update:

As I wrote in post #29 the blasting process was a bit too slow using my 3hp compressor. I only got 10 inches done working each weekend afternoon, so I kind of lost the spirit in the project for a while.
To speed it up I either needed to rent a much more powerful compressor or have someone with a mobile blasting unit to come and help me.
After some exploring I found a guy with a mobile diesel compressor that helped me out for a very reasonable sum. First I was nervous he would turn my C to a Swiss cheese with that monster compressor, but the result turned out very good. In ten minutes of blasting he did several of weekends work for me, best money I ever spent! :xyxthumbs:

Shortly after that my buddy came and welded the rust using a MIG we borrowed from another old friend.

I’m very happy with the result and it sure feels good to have a waterproof trunk again :beers:

[Robroy]

And …. primed, painted and clear coated....

I decided not use any filler to even out that very small edge you see on the last pict since I figure it wont show anyway when the vinyl is back on again.

[Robroy]

I needed some new window&vinyl trim clips which I got from Northland Fasteners in Kansas City/MO. http://www.northlandfasteners.com/

They didn’t normally ship outside us/canada but made an exception since I had paypal. Shipping was also surprisingly fast for reasonable money and the clips looked fine, I can really recommend them!

[Gum,beest]

Hi Per
Good to see you back
I assume that your eye is also better
Looks good to see that all the rust is gone from your window, now hope that the installation of the rear window and top will go on without any nasty surprises
Best wishes to all three of you (you, girlfriend and the car)

[The German]

Hej, tricky work nearly ended - hope your car will be ready for the road soon b/c we currently have so nice weather around here in central Europe, Per ! I´m curious seeing your BC when your work is totally finished.

Good to have you here again - best greetings from Germany, also to your girl !

[Robroy]

Thanks Erik and Rolf!

Next step will be to glue the vinyl back on again, have to admit I’m a little nervous for the task but I got some tips earlier today how to handle the process, so hopefully it will work out as nice as the rest.
You are right about the weather Rolf, it has been really nice and it’s already time to mow the lawn here which is early for this time of year for us!

[Robroy]

This week I glued the vinyl back on again and the result turned out better than I had hopped for with almost 40 year old and rather stiff vinyl.

I did ran a little short at the corners which resulted in little gaps (3mm) towards the vinyl trim there :Dou:, I probably folded in just a little too much on the window side.
I covered the gaps with some black duct tape that has similar color and structure as the vinyl, it will probably loosen in hot sunshine later on but have to do for now.

Once you spray on the glue (on the metal and vinyl) you have to act fairly fast before it dries, with two persons it would had been easier working on each side.

The re-glued areas has on some places very tiny bubbles but there is no air in them, it’s probably old glue or me using too much new glue.

I installed the trim too after some HARD work :tonge2: polishing off all old silicone

Going to the car glass shop this Thursday to have the window installed, I pray for the dry weather to hold on till then...

[The German]

Hej, well done - looks good, Per ! :xyxthumbs:
Hope with you that the weather-god will be Buick-friendly during the next days.

[Bob Alberini]

It looks like things turned out very well for you, Per, and I know you'll be glad when the glass is re-installed and you'll again be able to enjoy your "C" and not have to worry about having a wet trunk. This was a great winter project for you and I know you are pleased with the end result. GREAT JOB!

[Robroy]

Thanks Rolf and Bob!

It took a little longer than I originally had planned for due to a number of reasons, but it feels great to finally be reaching the end of it!

Since I have all the original trunk interior (cardboard, carpets etc) in still pretty good shape that water leak has bugged me from day one and kept me away from any carshow with the slightest risk of rain in the forecast
This season that won’t be problem anymore :beers:

[Robroy]

I got the window installed yesterday

See the slot between the window and body below, since this don’t has any draining water gather here and create rust.
I have been toying with the idea of installing draining hoses in each corner which would have been easy to set up.
However, I decided to fill the slot with an underbody rust protection compound instead which will rust protect as well as fill out the slot I thought.
But today it stroked me that the butyl string they re-installed the window in may not be compatible with such chemically ...hm….any chemist onboard? :)

[The German]

I´m not the chemist you asked for, Per, but as far as I know the underbody rust protection stuff is not very aggressive to rubber or butyl b/c rubber and butyl usually also are part of every underbody of car; so it might be a little bit aggressive in the fluid phase but after hardening it shouldn´t act as a rubber or butyl killer. If it really has that little aggressive phase also this shouldn´t be bad - this should be good (!) b/c in that case after hardening out there will be an intensive mixed zone between the both parts where they meet together. That´s only my guessing but to me it seems to be logical and as if has a high probability.

BTW : To get a good feeling afterwards you could take some of the butyl, paint some of your underbody rust protection compound on it and watch what will happen over the next weeks, months, may be years.

For the area where you have the tape on now I would try to test a filling with a leather fluid which can be get in the color you want and can get the stucture you want too. Some links below for example (could be translated by Google) :
http://www.lederzentrum.de/home/tip/auto/kunstfaerben.html
http://www.color-glo.de/index.php?seite=produkte
http://www.korrosionsschutz-depot.de/shop_xtc/product_info.php?info=p267_Leder-und-Kunstleder-Reparaturset.html

Hope I could help you with my infos !

[Robroy]

I appreciate you lending me some brain-power on the subject Rolf and you are most likely right that the butyls strip and tectyl filler would play along nicely.

I asked the car glass shop and they said that I can put anything there that doesn’t contain any solvent.
The rust protection filler I have contains benzene, sounds like a solvent to me but I’m not sure :confused4:.

Anyway, I think I will go the middle way and just paint on some rust protector in the slot and park the idea about using a filler. I want to be 100% sure that it wouldn’t mess up the seal before going that way.



For the area where you have the tape on now I would try to test a filling with a leather fluid which can be get in the color you want and can get the stucture you want too. Some links below for example (could be translated by Google) :
I have been thinking on similar solutions, I haven’t decided if it will be a new vinyl top sometime in the future or not, we’ll see….:)

[Robroy]

I haven’t put on the window trim yet still thinking on filling out that slot if I can find the right substance

I washed the car yesterday before going to a car show and it was pretty interesting to see how the water quickly gathers in each corner.

With the trim on it would had taking a little longer for the water to fill up the slot corners but also longer to evaporate…

[Robroy]

It showed to be easier said than done to find a suitable filler for the slot around the window.
The goal is stop water from gathering in the corners as showed in the pervious post, since this in a long term perspective creates rust.

Specification of requirements would be:
- NOT to suspend the butyl string the window is installed in
- not to suck up or encapsulate water
- if possible also be rust protective
- don’t expand during change of temperature, be elastic
- etc etc

But the other day it stroke me to use and ordinary rubber hose, so I tried with some vacuum hoses I had lying.
I put a 2.6 feet piece in each corner.
Any water that will gather inside the hose will not do any harm, what goes through will come out on the middle part of the slot and evaporate there, some will of course go under the hose and gather there but due to the round shape of the hose it should evaporate fairly good.

I’m out of ideas so I think I go for this solution and then install the window trim...

[The German]

Seems to be good idea so far, Per. I would add some special grease which should not be aggressive to rubber and the windows seal. The grease would be a layer under the rubber hose and stop water, further it´s flexible and will fill all gaps which probably remained or will open someday. This way you should be sure getting no rust again for decades !

As far as I know such a grease mostly is based on silicone; here is a German site about it : http://www.winix.de/silikon.html (use google translator ...).

Added the translated text :
"Silicone pastes in a wide temperature range to keep their consistency with Vaseline almost unchanged. They remain pasty at -50 ° C and withstand temperatures up to +220 ° C. The tendency to bleeding is low even in the heat and the oil secretion is also a long time only a few percent. Some silicone pastes show a slight thixotropy, ie under mechanical stress, they are thinner and take up again after some time the original consistency.

Silicone greases Silicone pastes and are highly water repellent. Vegetable oils, mineral oils, gases, dilute acids and alkalis, and most aqueous solutions attack silicone paste and silicone grease does not. In contact with plastics and rubber, they do not cause swelling.

Silicone and silicone grease pastes are radiation resistant and flame retardant. They are physiologically inert and nontoxic. They form no breeding ground for microorganisms and can therefore be used in the tropics under humid conditions.

Requirements for the various pastes are silicone and silicone grease for disposal with different behavior. They have proven themselves as a release agent in rubber and plastic deformation, as a lubricant, as a moisture barrier, as embedding media and damping, electrical insulating or as a sealing paste.

Silicone paste and silicone greases are no distinct lubricant for bearing lubrication, but are used because of its good lubrication at high and low temperatures for the lubrication of certain materials / material combinations (metal / plastic, metal / rubber, plastics / plastics, rubber / rubber)."

[Robroy]

Seems to be good idea so far, Per. I would add some special grease which should not be aggressive to rubber and the windows seal. The grease would be a layer under the rubber hose and stop water, further it´s flexible and will fill all gaps which probably remained or will open someday. This way you should be sure getting no rust again for decades !

As far as I know such a grease mostly is based on silicone; here is a German site about it : http://www.winix.de/silikon.html (use google translator ...).

Added the translated text :
"Silicone pastes in a wide temperature range to keep their consistency with Vaseline almost unchanged. They remain pasty at -50 ° C and withstand temperatures up to +220 ° C. The tendency to bleeding is low even in the heat and the oil secretion is also a long time only a few percent. Some silicone pastes show a slight thixotropy, ie under mechanical stress, they are thinner and take up again after some time the original consistency.

Silicone greases Silicone pastes and are highly water repellent. Vegetable oils, mineral oils, gases, dilute acids and alkalis, and most aqueous solutions attack silicone paste and silicone grease does not. In contact with plastics and rubber, they do not cause swelling.

Silicone and silicone grease pastes are radiation resistant and flame retardant. They are physiologically inert and nontoxic. They form no breeding ground for microorganisms and can therefore be used in the tropics under humid conditions.

Requirements for the various pastes are silicone and silicone grease for disposal with different behavior. They have proven themselves as a release agent in rubber and plastic deformation, as a lubricant, as a moisture barrier, as embedding media and damping, electrical insulating or as a sealing paste.

Silicone paste and silicone greases are no distinct lubricant for bearing lubrication, but are used because of its good lubrication at high and low temperatures for the lubrication of certain materials / material combinations (metal / plastic, metal / rubber, plastics / plastics, rubber / rubber)."

Very interesting tip Rolf!

I Googled it and it seems to be rust protective as well

Thanks for the heads up:xyxthumbs: