Mounting edelbrock performer intake?

[MichelHaak]

Hi guys!

I have some questions concerning the intake...

The valve which opens the canal for exhaust gasses to warm up the intake, how can I close this canal best?

Which gasket for the intake do you have to use. I already ordered the Speedpro PN260-4023. I hope this is the right one?

I'm also concerned about the vacuum lines etc which run over the intake, but I'm not that far yet!

[Gum,beest]

Hi Michel
Witch canal do you mean the one on the aircleaner?
you can close it just by closing the valve on it and plug the vacuum line or fix a plate untherneath it and then put the flex hose over it again to maintain the stock look
The intake gasket i think i can not help you with because late 72 and 73 the head have changed so i probbaly have a different one then you but you can easely check this by looking at your heads i will shoot a picture of mine and note what have changed
and last when i took my intake and other stuff off i took some pictures of it to remember where the vacuum lines supposed to be
If you want i can post them as well

[Austrian455]

Michel,
The intake gasket you bought should be the correct one. The part no. says that it is the smog style gasket. You need this to get the smog passages closed.
I´m not sure which "valve" or "canal" you mean. But there is one big runner on each head that is called the heat riser. It´s centered in the gasket surface of the heads.
I added a pic where I marked the heat riser and the smog holes.
The smog holes get closed by the performer intake.
I´m not sure if you really want to close the heat riser.
As long as your engine is no high performance application you won´t get much more HP out.
BUT if you close the heat riser you will cause that the choke wont operate very well. On my car it is also closed and if I remember correctly also on adam´s 71.
Maybe it makes sense on his car because of the stage 1 heads and especially on his new build up.
But if I could choose again I would go with the heat riser.

When you´re going to install the manifold make sure that you have all parts you´ll need at home. I forgot some when I did the job and had to wait three weeks for delivery. I ordered all the stuff at yearone.com
Maybe you already have all parts but here´s a list of what I ordered:

- Intake gasket (smog style) you have
- intake manifold bolt set (is needed because the old one´s are to long and cant be shortened) PN: TS56
- pcv valve grommet PN: 2350N
- breather grommet at valve cover PN: 2027N
- oil filler cap (they are always leaking :tonge2:) PN: F463
- thermo vacuum switch PN: 2021N
- chevy big block choke kit PN: CD95
- rebuild kit for the Q jet (ordered at classicbuicks.com)
- 1.5 meters vacuum hose (local store)
- heater valve (classicbuicks.com)
- valve cover gaskets

You just have to modify the chevy choke a little bit and it will fit nice.
As you can see I also did the valve cover gaskets and some other things you may net need. But if you never replaced all those grommets and gaskets I would do that now.
When I´m at home I can post you some pics of the modified choke, heater hoses and heater valve....
hope that helps.

[Robroy]

When I´m at home I can post you some pics of the modified choke, heater hoses and heater valve....
hope that helps.
If you should have any close up’s of the heat riser (intake side on the head), please post that too. I’m interested to learn how that thing looks and operates

[Smartin]

Here is my choke setup on the Performer.

http://www.buickpartsdirectory.com/coupe/performer_choke001.jpg

http://www.buickpartsdirectory.com/coupe/performer_choke002.jpg

[EEE]

Here is my choke setup on the Performer.



I think a fly took a crap on one of your hoses. Better clean that up so you can eat off of the engine again.

[MichelHaak]

thanks for all the info! What my concern is about the heat riser is that I believe that in the original intake, a cover is installed and below that small cover there is a piece of bimetal, which opens the heat riser when it's cold. When the engine warms up, the bimetal will change shape and will shut off the heat riser. I thought that there's no place on the Performer intake for this piece of equipment, so the heat riser would be open all the time?

[Smartin]

I don't recall any "valves" that are supposed to be in the intake manifold. I have seen butterfly valves installed at the end of the exhaust manifold that forces eair through the exhaust manifold and back through the intake crossover.

Can you post a photo?

[MichelHaak]

http://www.metcomotorsports.com/prodimages/large/BUICK455INT.jpg

On top you can see a small plate. I am not sure if there's a valve with bi-metal spring below it, but old chrysler engines from the late fifties do have these valves. I'm not sure it Buick has this but it looks like it. Anyhow, if I not close the heat riser, the exhaust gasses will flow trough the intake all the time, also when the engine is hot. Isn't this a bad thing?

[MichelHaak]

Hm, when I compare this thing with a picture of Adam, it looks like a mounting thing for something. Guess there's no valve in the original intake either. That would mean also on original engines that exhaust gasses flow continues trough the manifold, so I don't have to close them! Right? :laugh:

[Smartin]

Michel, you posted a photo of a 71 Buick intake. The valve you are referring to is the choke spring/housing. If you are using a Performer, then my photo is what you need to be doing if you want to use a choke. The Performer intake already has an exhaust crossover built into it, so it will warm up the choke.

I blocked the exhaust crossovers in my heads with two freeze plugs, only because I wanted to keep the intake cool, and also to keep the paint from burning off the intake across the middle. But it hurts the performance of the choke if you want to use it. Mine works, but I have to set it very loose so that only mild heat will open the choke up.

[MichelHaak]

Thanks!

Well I guess I can close it, because the car will run on LPG only, I won't need a choke and a cool intake is always good ofcourse!

The freezeplugs you mounted in the manifold, can I just buy them at a general car shop or at summit?

[Smartin]

I actually blocked the ports of the heads with the freeze plugs, not the intake. You can probably use JB Weld to plug up the ports on the intake if you want to close it off.

[Austrian455]

JB Weld the intake ports? Did I miss something? Are you going to reuse the stock intake manifold or are you going to install a performer? If you mount a performer you don´t have to use any plugs on the heads or weld to pug up any ports. When you install the intake use a SMOG style gasket and the smog holes are closed.
And if you want to close the heat riser also, I can´t give you any advice. On my performer the heat riser was closed by welding a piece of aluminum in and sand it plain for a good seal. But this was done by the previos owner. I wouldn´t do that. I think thats not a big goal on a stock or near stock engine.

[Smartin]

No JB welding on intake ports. Exhaust crossover on the intake...plug it if you want, but it won't gurt anything except the paint when it burns off.

[Austrian455]

Sure. No welding on the intake ports. I wanted to say welding on the SMOG holes. This missunderstanding was my fault. Sorry.

[Austrian455]

Adam, on the pics of your engine I saw that you are using the same heater control valve as I do. It looks different than the stock valve. So I thought it doesn´t matter, the 100% stock look is gone anyway. So i shortened the heater hose and installed pluged it to a other thread in the water passages behind the carb. So I get a cleaner look.
Is this a disadvantage in function anyway? Or did you use the old location just because it was there?

[Smartin]

I wanted to make the engine look completely stock, so I kept the stock heater control valve in the stock location. You can move it to the back with no issues. I used the back location on mine to place the engine temperature gauge.

[MichelHaak]

Peter thanks for that list! But I can not use the part numbers at the summit site, can you help me?

[Austrian455]

Michel, that are yearone part no.

www.yearone.com

[MichelHaak]

Well i have a complete list I think, but I am nog 100% sure. Also the repair manual is not very clear about all the stuff on the intake.

-Because I will run on LPG only, I will not need a choke anymore.

-I will block off the heat riser because I want an optimal cold gas in the intake and because LPG burns at a higher temperature, it keeps some heat out of the engine there. Maybe the fuel comsumption will be better this way.

-What does the electric on the intake? I see 2 places where a wire is connected to a plastic black thing. For what are these two things do and do I need them anymore? 1 of these units is a cilinder located near the throttle arms.

-Do I need the P.V.C?

-How does the temperature sensor works?

[73 Centurion]

Hi Mike,

I can't give you specifics but I can give you some general guidelines. You need the PVC, (positve crankcase ventillation). As your engine works pressure can develop inside the case. It needs a way to get out. The PVC is that path.

The cylinder you mention is probably the tempurature sensor. It works by providing ground at a certain tempurature (what temp varies). Power runs through a light in the dash and out to this sensor. When the sensor gets to it's threshold tempurature it completes the circuit and the illuminates the light. You can check to see if the cylinder is the temp sensor by grounding the wire and checking the light. The sensor screws into a hole that has anti-freeze in it. A little teflon tape should be used to prevent a leak.

You should find a home for all of the things that are in your current intake and make sure you block off any holes that remain.

John

[Austrian455]

If you don´t need the choke, what are you going to do?
You´re going to close the heat riser. OK.
But you need to keep the choke open anyway.
Do you want to remove the choke plate or do you have
an idea to keep it open?

[MichelHaak]

I have a second hand Edelbrock performer and on the place where the choke is placed, a flat surface with no open connection to the heat riser is located, so no problem with a plate or something.

This new toy will be mounted on the Edelbrock performer:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/DSC_4406.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/DSC_4409.jpg
Billet aluminum and adjustable second step.

[MichelHaak]

Intake bolts problem solved [edit]

[MichelHaak]

By the way,

I orderded the gasket which you also ordered Peter, but do I also need a valley pan or is that gasket something which is also a valleypan?

[Austrian455]

the original intake gasket is the valley pan.
Thats one thin aluminum panel which is layed in.

On the pic you can see the gasket installed.
I don´t know why he painted the gasket surface?!?!:Dou:
Don´t do that.

[Austrian455]

hey, where´s the pic??

[MichelHaak]

Ok very good. So the one I ordered is just the right one. Do I need anymore little gaskets to install the manifold or is this thin panel the only thing that's necessary?

[Austrian455]

There are 2 rubber seals which are located between the block and manifold. (on the front and rear of block)
You can see them in the pic (they are also painted :( )
They are included in the valley kit you ordered (Fel-Pro)
Everything I needed to do the job on my car is listed in my first post on this.
I don´t know what you ordered.

[MichelHaak]

I ordered the same valleypan as you Peter! So I almost have everything at home now... Thanks for the info!

[Austrian455]

Thats fine Michel,
I´m sure you will be glad that you also ordered all the small stuff.
It realy helps with completing the job correct.
Let me see how it looks when you´re done ;)

[MichelHaak]

Another one:

What does the vacuum line at arrow 1? It runs from the baseplate to the back, into the manifold again.

At arrow 2, there is an electric device which I will delete, but what does it?

At arrow 3, what does this thing? It contains 3 vacuum lines, one of them runs to the distributor, one goes to the carburator and the other one is closed. I also has some wiring. I guess I can delete this part at arrow 3 and create a vacuum line from the baseplate to the distributor?

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/manifold.jpg

[Robroy]

Number 3 is the Thermostatic Vacuum Switch (TVS), it controls the vacuum advance to you distributor via the coolant temp.
I have removed this on my car since I needed the opening for a sending unit to my temp gauge. My vacuum advanced is now hooked up directly to the carb

Number 2 is a idling solenoid, I think it’s supposed to push up the throttle a little at idle when the AC is engaged to compensate the load from the AC-compressor

[Gum,beest]

Hi Michel
I don't know why the hose runs from the manifold to the front of the carburetor but it is supposed to be that way
the solenoid number two is to keep your engine idle when your airco is switch on
The number three is the thermo vacuum switch it allows the vacuum advance only when your engine is at operating temperature when your engine is could it opens the hot air valve on your air cleaner intake and the diverter valve on the airpump

It should be connected like this
From the top down
To the vacuum advance on your distributor
From the vacuum feed on the carburator ( between the fuel inlet and solenoid number 2 )
To the vacuum four way connector
see the scan courtesy of WDR

[MichelHaak]

Thanks guys! Only wondering if I can delete that vacuum line which at arrow 1. Any more thoughts about it?

[Austrian455]

no. 1 is the hose that connects the PCV valve to the carb.
It´s needed to get some vacuum into the crank case. Don´t remove it.
no.2 is a solenoid that increases idle when you turn on the A/C.
no.3 is the thermosatic vacuum switch.
The vacuum ports run to the distributer and to the air cleaner.
On a cold engine it will open a flap and supply hot air to the air cleaner. But this port should be plugged on your car because of the LPG.
When the engine reaches operating temp it enables the vacuum advance for the timing.
It also increases the idle on a cold engine. (2 wires running to this)

If your not able to remove this from your old intake you can replace it or not. If you cancel it you have to run a vacuum hose from the carb to the distributor.

In case you can´t remove the old switch (doesn´t matter if you replace or cancel) you have to connect both wires that were running to the old swtch. If you don´t connect them with each other the engine will not stop to run on increased idle.

[Austrian455]

Sounds like you didn´t order a new thermo vacuum switch.
I wasn´t able to remove it from the old manifold. My you have more luck.
But that was the reason why I put it into the list I posted you ;-)

I added a pic of my setup with the new TVS.
Hope that helps.

[MichelHaak]

Danke sehr Peter! I think I will not install it on the new setup so i will just connect the two wires and create a new vacuum line from the carb to the distributor.

[Austrian455]

Michel, I saw that you´ve got two different types of spark plug wires in your car!!!
Maybe you should give your engine bay a little "fresh up" when you´re mounting the new intake. No chance that you remove that LPG stuff out of the car?
You´ll never be able to get a nice and clean look under your hood with it.

[MichelHaak]

Watch out what you say Peter, when I am finished with installing this new setup, you almost won't see it and it performs as good as on regular fuel. :laugh:

[Gum,beest]

Hi Michel
When you are finished will you post some pictures of your setup
You know i am very curious about the LPG system and the way to hide it and make it look stock
I hope to finish my own engine this weekend i will post pictures and maybe a video clip ( i promised that to my colleges and friends on Hyves)

[The German]

Michel, could you also give us some information regarding the costs of the LPG-system ? What are the total costs (tank, evaporator, gasmixer at the intake which replaces the carburator or is added to it, electric valves, etc.) ?

[MichelHaak]

Rolf,

Here's some information about the costs and possible setups;

Best setup:
100% LPG setup, without a carburator.
Parts:
-100 litres LPG tank (120 litres is possible in a Centurion coupe trunk).
-Big fuel line to the evaporator (I heard 8 mm is the best).
-Impco E series evaporator (about 400 euros)
-Some relais and switching equipment is bolted between the gas tank and the evaporator, this won't cost you a lot.
-Impco 425 mixer (200 euros, 425 CFM), this mixer is the best one for a Buick big block!

Medium setup, good for a combination between normal fuel and LPG:

Pretty much the same parts as stated above, only the carburator stays on and the mixer is an Impco 300a version (costs around 200 euros). This will only deliver 300 CFM and you will give your not the best performance. However, this is the only setup which fits under the hood with a carburator mounted. This setup is not the prettiest and the fuel usage will go up with 25% compared to regular fuel.

Most parts you can buy yourself, I know someone who delivers mixers for excellent prices. A descent LPG installation will costs you around 1600 euros.

The best is to go for a setup without a curburator mounted, this way the airflow get much better and in combination with a good ignition and intake manifold, the performance of your car should be good. If you drive about 3000 miles a year, you already saved 1600 euros (I don't have a culculator by hand but you get the idea).

You will also have to go the TUV to let them check the installation and to change your main fuel source on the papers. of your car.

[The German]

Thanks, Michel, that was prompt and detailed information !

As far as I know in Germany historical cars are not allowed to have such big tanks in the trunk because they can not be hidden to keep the look original; so mostly they only allow driving LPG with a tank hidden within a tire (those tanks have the form of a tire because they are made to be mounted into the tire box in other cars trunks).

Regarding the investment return calculation :
1600€/((XXkm per year*0,7€ per l LPG*19 l LPG per 100 km)-(XXkm per year*1,2€ per l gasoline*16,5 l per 100 km))=years for return of investment
asumption: the car will need 15% more LPG than gasoline

With XX = 5000 km a year the investment will bring back the money after 5 years and after this time one would earn money (without the interest rates for the invested money).
With smaller km per year the time for money return will grow, also with a higher price for the LPG system; with a higher spread between the LPG and the gasoline price that time will be reduced.

But I guess for me such an investment wouldn´t be worthful because I´m not driving so much km a year and I would lose space in the trunk or would have to drive without a spare tire because here in Germany we can not install a normal tank like you in NL as I told above.

On the other hand it´s a good possibility for those who have more free trunk volume (coupe or 4-door hard top) and will drive plenty km per year.

Thanks again, Michel - good to know this side of the story too !

[Austrian455]

5 years until it is worth the investment. In my opinion, thats to long to make it interesting. I also don´t like the thought to drive it with LPG.
In austria many people used to put LPG systems in their car...in the 80´s.
All cars I saw with this had badly woren out valve guides.
For my part: I drive the Centurion 2000 - 3000 km a year. Those few km are just for fun. And fun means to me that I drive a classic car. Classic cars are original or have modification that are common to their time.
I understand that people want to drive as cheap as possible in their daily drivers. But I prefer to spend my money in torque.
I also think that the performer intake makes no sense when your converting your car to LPG.
But maybe I´m wrong. If I would plan to convert my car to any other kind of fuel, I would modify it to run E85. Thats also cheaper and the best thing you can do for the environment. The mods are a lot cheaper. Just put a stainless fuel line in, alcohol resistant hoses and gaskets. You can buy alcohol resistant Q-Jet kits from Gessler.
But I wish you the best with your system.

[MichelHaak]

When I bought the car, LPG was already installed. Now I am only planning to make it run better and make it look more stock. Here in the Netherlands is LPG 60 cents and regular fuel around 1,30 euros. When the fuel usage will be the same (with the best LPG setup), the money that you save is 70 eurocent every 4 km's. That's 1600 euro/0,175 euro per km = 9142 km's. I think when you drive the Centurion as much as I do, the return on investment is already in 1,5 years.

Because I'm a relatively poor student, I just want to make my car more efficient and prettier under the hood. My car now has a fuel usage of 1 litre LPG on 3,3 km's. With this new LPG setup I am aiming at 1:4 and with improved ignition 1:4,5. This will save me even more money when I take the car for a long trip! :beers:

Here is a picture how the engine bay is now, so it's pretty obvious I want to change this. Also, converting it back to regular fuel is not interesting for me for 2 reasons:

1. I can't take the car out too much because the costs to fill it up will be way too high.
2. The fuel tank and fuel lines are in such a bad state, it's not safe anymore, installing a new tank and lines will also cost me too much money. Therefore, I will remove the fuel system completely one of this months.

[MichelHaak]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/DSC_2753.jpg

[The German]

Michel, guess most of us would do the same you want to do if we would have a car with installed LPG system - optimise it and driving cheaper. But it´s another problem if you have to install all new of course.

BTW 1: I had a BMW some years with such a LPG system and it worked without any problems. The advantage of LPG also is that the oil keeps cleaner because it burns nearly without production of any soot. So the wear on all engine parts is a little bit lower and you could replace the oil after longer driven distances than driven with gasoline - a small but also a cash-back-fact.

BTW 2: To ensure that the valves get no problems you could add the special oil-drop-in-system for LPG powered engines. The LPG gets added some drops of oil when the engine is running to ensure lubrication of the valves etc. and as far as I know such a system is cheap (around 120 Euro).

Good luck and keep us posted !

[MichelHaak]

I will also sandblast and paint the valve covers. I'm not sure if I will paint the intake manifold. It's also hard to get Buick red here in europe because the spraycans/paint (liquids) can't be transported by air because of anti terror regulations.

Sadly I will have to modify the aircleaner. That's because of the hight of the mixer. The best thing to do would be to fabricate a spacer which would bring the housing 3/4" up but that would be machined with a milling machine. another option is to modify the hole in the lid to lower it.

Here are some pictures of the new parts. The aircleaner is a 72 model and is already powdercoated. I will get some new stickers for it.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0573.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0574.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0575.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0576.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0579.jpg

[Austrian455]

Looks good. If someone doesn´t know and doesn´t look in every corner of that engine bay he will see no difference.
I would try to get some thick rubber and cut of a strap. So you will get the filter element sitting higher and also the cover of the air cleaner.
I did the same thing on my car because I have a K&N filter element in and wanted to provide more air than it can get through the orig. 72 snorkle.

[Austrian455]

Looks like a 71 air cleaner assembly.

[MichelHaak]

A rubber is also a good idea! Thanks for that. The only problem with bringing the housing up instead of the lid down, is that the whole setup will get a little bit higher. When I have mounted everything in the car I will decide what to do with the aircleaner. Your idea is the best I recon. :xyxthumbs:

Also, when this whole project is done, I will look for a new ignition and replace some of the coolant system parts.

[Austrian455]

Michel, I think we had a missunderstanding.
I don´t wanted to say to bring the housing up. Just the cover.
When you got it installed it should look like you bought a to tall air filter element.
You know what I mean?
Thats also a possible way to get enough clearence for the mixer.
Just buy taller air filter element from K&N. They have elements in nearly every diameter and height. That would increase the air flow, give you some space for the mixer and doesn´t cost you to much. Just measure the orig. element, add what you need and look which K&N comes close to what you need.

I think you will need a 14 inch diameter element. I think the orig. measures 2.5 inches. So I think this one should be fine:
http://www.jegs.com/i/K%26N/599/E-3743/10002/-1

[MichelHaak]

[edit] I figured out the hose should go into the edelbrock manifold on the right/back. Again something solved.

Haha ok, that's a little communication error, sorry about that. Your idea is good but the space between the lid and the housing stays that way. Do you have any pictures of that on your car?

I'm also looking for some close up pictures of Buick 455 engines with an edelbrock performer. On the picture below a coolant hose from the heater runs into the intake manifold. On a performer, this is not possible?

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff298/Michelhaak/100_0561.jpg

[Austrian455]

I will take some pics of mine until wednesday.
Yes, you are able to route the heater hoses the same way they are now.
But the Performer has one additional thread at the rear where you can also plug in with one of the heater hoses. I did it this way because you get a cleaner look when you get one of the hoses out of sight.
All other things that are pluged in the manifold are located where they are original on my car.
But you will see on the pics. I´ll make detailed pics of everything I think it´s neccesary for you.
The space between lid and housing stays that way?? No, it doesn´t. I think you don´t know what I mean, or maybe I´m the one who gets it the wrong way. I´ll take pics, that should be the easiest way.

[MichelHaak]

Ok, it's saturday evening anyway. Time to grab a beer in the bar! I'm looking forward to see your pictures. :)

[Austrian455]

Michel, I found one pic of my manifold before I installed it.
That should explain the thing with the heater hose.

[Austrian455]

Yep, that´s true. Time to grab one or two cool blondes and maybe a hot blonde for later ;)